Is your pastor deceiving you, or is he just ignorant?

[Browner]

The more I study the NT the more WARNINGS I see,
but all the while … most pastors are preaching GRACE!
Most of the NT was written to born-again Christians in the churches,
so many warnings were written to YOU (if indeed you are born-again).
However, most believers today are blind to them (for several reasons).
Dozens of verses WARN: If you choose to keep on sinning without
serious confession and repentance (sincere regret and desire to change),
you will fall from grace and forfeit your salvation!

• “… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

• “… whoever (reverentially) fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

• “… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness … so now present your members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness … the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (Romans 6:16, 19, 23)

• “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death
the (sinful) deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by God’s Spirit,
these are sons of God.” (Romans 8:13-14)

• Jesus warned: “And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

• “To not obey is to not believe” is taught in Hebrews 3:18-19 …
which links back to the applicable examples of: sinning (3:17), rebelling (3:16),
hardening of the heart (3:15), and not remaining faithful (3:14).

• “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of (eternal) life … But each one is tempted when he is drawn
away by his own desires … Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin when it is full-grown brings forth (eternal) death.” (James 1:12-16)

• “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.” (Revelation 2:10)

• Everyone who is “cowardly (fearful), unbelieving (includes unfaithful), abominable,
murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in
the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

• “… reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7)
Yes, everyone who is ungodly will be thrown into the lake of fire!

• Jesus is coming back for:
“… a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing …
holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:27)
“… holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God” (Hebrews 12:14)

• To continue our progressive sanctification unto holiness,
it is critical to regularly confess and repent of our sins …
“IF we walk in the light … the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin
… IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us (of) our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:7-9)

 

[Lyndon]

Not surprisingly, out of all the verses you quote, only one is the words of Jesus, typical of Christians today, Jesus is relegated to second fiddle to Paul and the apostles.

 

[atpollard]

The more I study the NT the more WARNINGS I see,
but all the while … most pastors are preaching GRACE!
Most of the NT was written to born-again Christians in the churches,
so many warnings were written to YOU (if indeed you are born-again).
However, most believers today are blind to them (for several reasons).
Dozens of verses WARN: If you choose to keep on sinning without
serious confession and repentance (sincere regret and desire to change),
you will fall from grace and forfeit your salvation!

• “… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

• “… whoever (reverentially) fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

• “… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness … so now present your members as slaves
of righteousness for holiness … the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (Romans 6:16, 19, 23)

• “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death
the (sinful) deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by God’s Spirit,
these are sons of God.” (Romans 8:13-14)

• Jesus warned: “And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

• “To not obey is to not believe” is taught in Hebrews 3:18-19 …
which links back to the applicable examples of: sinning (3:17), rebelling (3:16),
hardening of the heart (3:15), and not remaining faithful (3:14).

• “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of (eternal) life … But each one is tempted when he is drawn
away by his own desires … Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin when it is full-grown brings forth (eternal) death.” (James 1:12-16)

• “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of (eternal) life.” (Revelation 2:10)

• Everyone who is “cowardly (fearful), unbelieving (includes unfaithful), abominable,
murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in
the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

• “… reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7)
Yes, everyone who is ungodly will be thrown into the lake of fire!

• Jesus is coming back for:
“… a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing …
holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:27)
“… holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God” (Hebrews 12:14)

• To continue our progressive sanctification unto holiness,
it is critical to regularly confess and repent of our sins …
“IF we walk in the light … the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin
… IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us (of) our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:7-9)

What is righteousness?
What is the goal that one hopes to achieve?

Galatians 6:1-10 (NIV)
"1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers."

This lays out a goal, and a plan to achieve that goal, and a warning and instructions on our part in achieving that goal.
Care must be taken, because the goal is not to browbeat 'church goers' into a form of 'holiness' built on fear and devoid of power.
The goal, as I read it, appears to be a God who desires to woo a people into a loving relationship that will create a change from within ... and this Holy Spirit initiated change from within is the source of any real, and true and worthwhile obedience and service.
It is not an accident that we are commanded to Love and Serve far more than we are commanded to Holiness.
In my humble opinion, working on loving and serving others (and trusting God) is our responsibility.
Making us Holy (from the inside out) is God's responsibility.

I think most pastors preach 'Grace', because it is what most people need to hear.
The real question is: Are they preaching Jesus Christ, crucified and resurrected? ... the only place to acquire that desperately needed Grace (that will ultimately lead to Holiness).

 

[David1967]

Not surprisingly, out of all the verses you quote, only one is the words of Jesus, typical of Christians today, Jesus is relegated to second fiddle to Paul and the apostles.

You are correct Lyndon. For some reason (unfortunately) the words of Paul hold much more weight than the words of Christ. The words of Jesus seem to be pretty straight forward. The teachings of Paul lead to the confusion that gave birth to the countless denominations we have today. IMHO

 

[David1967]

Not surprisingly, out of all the verses you quote, only one is the words of Jesus, typical of Christians today, Jesus is relegated to second fiddle to Paul and the apostles.

I often wonder what modern Christianity would be like if its focus was only the teachings of Christ, and the writings of Paul were only a sidenote for historical purposes.

 

[Neo Deist]

I often wonder what modern Christianity would be like if its focus was only the teachings of Christ, and the writings of Paul were only a sidenote for historical purposes.

There is a term for that: Christian Deism

 

[atpollard]

I often wonder what modern Christianity would be like if its focus was only the teachings of Christ, and the writings of Paul were only a sidenote for historical purposes.

There is a term for that: Christian Deism

Should we discard all of the OT context as well ... to keep our 'Christ' pure?

I respectfully disagree with the underlying premise, viewing my Bible as having ALL of the words in RED (as in 'God breathed' ).

 

[Lyndon]

If someone raped your daughter, would you insist she marry her rapist, as per direction in Leviticus?? Better be careful how many words you put in red in your Bible.

 

[atpollard]

If someone raped your daughter, would you insist she marry her rapist, as per direction in Leviticus?? Better be careful how many words you put in red in your Bible.

No, because I would be fortunate enough to recognize the futility of attempting to be righteous by following the Law and the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old (which I learned reading Romans and Hebrews).
Would it be better to handle the clearly evil situation like the rape of Dinah? Lie and slaughter the entire city. I believe that God did inspire that verse to provide civil order when dealing with a terrible situation. I do not believe that 'rape and shotgun wedding' is held up as the biblical ideal.

Turning it around:
Do you believe that God inspired none of the Bible?
How do YOU know anything about who God is?
How do you know what Jesus said?
If two Gospels do not quote Jesus exactly the same, do we need to strike those words from red as well?

It is easy to reject where I have drawn my line, but where do you draw your line?

 

[Neo Deist]

Should we discard all of the OT context as well ... to keep our 'Christ' pure?

I respectfully disagree with the underlying premise, viewing my Bible as having ALL of the words in RED (as in 'God breathed' ).

That is the problem...Jesus never wrote anything in the Bible. As a matter of fact, the Gospels and the Book of Acts have anonymous authors who are writing 3rd party hearsay. Just because a publishing company sets the font color to red does not make it special.

Try this...find out where any biblical author makes the claim that God spoke directly to them and told them what to write.

 

[Lyndon]

No, because I would be fortunate enough to recognize the futility of attempting to be righteous by following the Law and the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old (which I learned reading Romans and Hebrews).
Would it be better to handle the clearly evil situation like the rape of Dinah? Lie and slaughter the entire city. I believe that God did inspire that verse to provide civil order when dealing with a terrible situation. I do not believe that 'rape and shotgun wedding' is held up as the biblical ideal.

Turning it around:
Do you believe that God inspired none of the Bible?
How do YOU know anything about who God is?
How do you know what Jesus said?
If two Gospels do not quote Jesus exactly the same, do we need to strike those words from red as well?

It is easy to reject where I have drawn my line, but where do you draw your line?

I believe the writers in the Bible were inspired by God, but short of Jesus none of them were anything close to perfect, all imperfect persons make mistakes, hence any prophecy in the Bible or purported word of God may or may not be entirely accurate. Even when we come to the words of Jesus, assuming he was perfect, the men that wrote his words down were not perfect and could have made mistakes in their memory of what Jesus actually said, there is no perfect book, anywhere in history, man is imperfect and can only come so close to accuracy when revealing the actual word of God. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, including ALL of the prophets.

 

[atpollard]

I believe the writers in the Bible were inspired by God, but short of Jesus none of them were anything close to perfect, all imperfect persons make mistakes, hence any prophecy in the Bible or purported word of God may or may not be entirely accurate. Even when we come to the words of Jesus, assuming he was perfect, the men that wrote his words down were not perfect and could have made mistakes in their memory of what Jesus actually said, there is no perfect book, anywhere in history, man is imperfect and can only come so close to accuracy when revealing the actual word of God. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, including ALL of the prophets.

We are actually only inches apart, and that is ok ... honest people of faith are allowed to disagree.

With respect to the people, I agree 100%.
With respect to what they originally wrote, I would disagree ... God's message flowed accurately from their pen.
... but I would agree that we do not have that 100% accurate message.
We have the best copy that imperfect beings have been able to hand down to us ... which contains flaws.

So all of my scripture is 'God breathed' (although not all of it is for me to do, different parts serve different purposes) ... but my current translation has lots of small copyist and typographic errors.
The secret is to remain aware of the difference between straining gnats and swallowing camels.

The God who promised Eve that her seed would fix things, and sent Moses to rescue a people, and came incarnate (Jesus) to rescue people willing to be rescued, and promises to return and create a new Heaven and Earth ... is still at work INSIDE us today.

God Bless.

 

[Lyndon]

With all due respect, I cannot believe in a God that would instruct anyone to write down that they were to marry their rapist, or stone women to death because their hymen was broken before marriage, or attack and kill men, women, children and animals of a people just because you wanted their land and believed God had given it to you, that doesn't come from God IMHO, that comes from man who mistakenly think they are directed by God. As far as I am concerned Jesus is the light in the bible, no other character or prophet or writer in the Bible even comes close. To be honest with you I largely ignore most of the Bible because it doesn't represent God like Jesus does, its to a large part written by people who for hook or by crook are putting their words in God's mouth, and I can imagine God is pretty PO'd about it. God is so much more that what is represented in most of the Bible, if you keep your eyes on Jesus, you won't go far astray, but most of the Bible is just there to distract you from what is really important, the message of Jesus.

 

[David1967]

If someone raped your daughter, would you insist she marry her rapist, as per direction in Leviticus?? Better be careful how many words you put in red in your Bible.

Thank you for that sensible insight Lyndon!

 

[David1967]

There is a term for that: Christian Deism

Thanks for the input. I really didn't know what that term meant.

 

[David1967]

Should we discard all of the OT context as well ... to keep our 'Christ' pure?

I respectfully disagree with the underlying premise, viewing my Bible as having ALL of the words in RED (as in 'God breathed' ).

Its not for us to keep Christ pure. He is pure on His own. As far as the OT? If I believed it literally I would have to assume that God approved of human sacrifice as in the case in Judges when the (supposed man of God) sacrificed his daughter because of a slip of speech. Not to mention the collective insanity that Lyndon mentioned.Sorry but I don't buy it. Why else did Jesus spend time contradicting the religious establishment of His day? Did God change His mind about stoning women? Or did Jesus contradict God by saying that the one who was without sin cast the first stone. No I believe Jesus was contradicting a "prophet" that was pushing a barbaric law that a merciful God would never expect of His people.

 

[atpollard]

As far as the OT? If I believed it literally I would have to assume that God approved of human sacrifice as in the case in Judges when the (supposed man of God) sacrificed his daughter because of a slip of speech. Not to mention the collective insanity that Lyndon mentioned.Sorry but I don't buy it. Why else did Jesus spend time contradicting the religious establishment of His day? Did God change His mind about stoning women? Or did Jesus contradict God by saying that the one who was without sin cast the first stone. No I believe Jesus was contradicting a "prophet" that was pushing a barbaric law that a merciful God would never expect of His people.

Sometimes I wonder if people read the same Bible that I do.

Since this topic wants to focus on Jesus, let's start with the last comment:

Why else did Jesus spend time contradicting the religious establishment of His day? Did God change His mind about stoning women? Or did Jesus contradict God by saying that the one who was without sin cast the first stone. No I believe Jesus was contradicting a "prophet" that was pushing a barbaric law that a merciful God would never expect of His people.

So what does the Law actually say?

Leviticus 20:10
“ ‘If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

Note that BOTH THE MAN AND WOMAN were to be put to death.
Jesus was faced with a woman CAUGHT IN THE ACT OF ADULTERY ... but where was the man.
Clearly something was not right with this situation.
That is part of what Jesus was calling them on ... someone was not being honest.

So what does the Law say about giving testimony and putting someone to death?

Deuteronomy 17:6-7
6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

So now let us look at the case before Jesus in light of the OT law presented above.

John 8:1-11
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

First, it was not Jesus to whom they should be bringing the accused for trial.
Second, if she was indeed "caught in the act", then they should have had two accused facing stoning.
Third, they were required by law to have at least two witnesses to the act ... two people who caught them in the act of adultery.
Fourth, if this burden of proof was met, then the witnesses should have cast the first stone.

In this case, there was clearly a conspiracy to violate the law and murder this woman.
There may have been purgery involved and the accusers may have been guilty of far more than that.
Jesus simple statement "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." is not a simple statement about showing mercy, it is a condemnation of evil scheming and hypocrisy.
I suspect that the oldest left first, because they knew the law best and were the first to realize that they were being called out for their sin.

Jesus final words “Then neither do I condemn you, Go now and leave your life of sin.” do not contradict and overturn a barbaric law by a false prophet, they display the mercy of God that is the hallmark of Jesus' ministry and they reaffirm that God's standard of righteousness has not changed. "Leave your life of sin" is a warning that she should take as seriously as God takes sin ... past, present and future.

Your blanket rejection of the OT as wrong and barbaric, and your view that Jesus came to wipe the slate clean and start over is robbing you a a depth and richness that permeates in interrelated threads from Genesis to Revelation. You might want to spend less time railing against minutiae and take a second look at the broad interrelated tapestry of scripture.

YMMV

 

[David1967]

Sometimes I wonder if people read the same Bible that I do.

Since this topic wants to focus on Jesus, let's start with the last comment:


So what does the Law actually say?

Leviticus 20:10
“ ‘If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

Note that BOTH THE MAN AND WOMAN were to be put to death.
Jesus was faced with a woman CAUGHT IN THE ACT OF ADULTERY ... but where was the man.
Clearly something was not right with this situation.
That is part of what Jesus was calling them on ... someone was not being honest.

So what does the Law say about giving testimony and putting someone to death?

Deuteronomy 17:6-7
6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

So now let us look at the case before Jesus in light of the OT law presented above.

John 8:1-11
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

First, it was not Jesus to whom they should be bringing the accused for trial.
Second, if she was indeed "caught in the act", then they should have had two accused facing stoning.
Third, they were required by law to have at least two witnesses to the act ... two people who caught them in the act of adultery.
Fourth, if this burden of proof was met, then the witnesses should have cast the first stone.

In this case, there was clearly a conspiracy to violate the law and murder this woman.
There may have been purgery involved and the accusers may have been guilty of far more than that.
Jesus simple statement "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." is not a simple statement about showing mercy, it is a condemnation of evil scheming and hypocrisy.
I suspect that the oldest left first, because they knew the law best and were the first to realize that they were being called out for their sin.

Jesus final words “Then neither do I condemn you, Go now and leave your life of sin.” do not contradict and overturn a barbaric law by a false prophet, they display the mercy of God that is the hallmark of Jesus ministry and they reaffirm that God's standard of righteousness has not changed. "Leave your life of sin" is a warning that she should take as seriously as God takes sin ... past, present and future.

Your blanket rejection of the OT as wrong and barbaric, and your view that Jesus came to wipe the slate clean and start over is robbing you a a depth and richness that permeates in interrelated threads from Genesis to Revelation. You might want to spend less time railing against minutiae and take a second look at the broad interrelated tapestry of scripture.

YMMV

Hello atpollard. Yes I have read the same bible as you and in many different versions. And though I have moved far from it I even studied in a very fundamentalist baptist seminary. But as I have grown older and met many wonderful people from different faiths all seeking God sincerely , I just dont think that God is the ever angry deity that I was taught. Otherwise I think that even if the man that the woman had committed adultery with had been there Jesus answer would have been the same. Followed by the same instruction to go and sin no more.

 

[atpollard]

Hello atpollard. Yes I have read the same bible as you and in many different versions. And though I have moved far from it I even studied in a very fundamentalist baptist seminary. But as I have grown older and met many wonderful people from different faiths all seeking God sincerely , I just dont think that God is the ever angry deity that I was taught. Otherwise I think that even if the man that the woman had committed adultery with had been there Jesus answer would have been the same. Followed by the same instruction to go and sin no more.

Probably, but not (as your earlier post suggests) because God had changed his mind on adultery and Jesus was here to abolish the Law and the Prophets.
God was never the 'ever angry deity'.

 

[David1967]

Probably, but not (as yur earlier post suggests) because God had changed his mind on adultery and Jesus was here to abolish the Law and the Prophets.
God was never the 'ever angry deity'.

Im afraid you misunderstand what I was trying to say. My thoughts about It is not that God changed His mind but that He didn't intend for such a bloody punishment in the first place, hence Jesus rebuke of the Pharisees. His comment to them was not due to the fact that the man was not there rather that no man is without sin therefore no man is worthy to cast that stone. And no I do not believe that God is the ever angry deity. If He was then I certainly wouldn't be here.