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Featured Is Universal Salvation biblical?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by michael lesueur, Mar 1, 2018.

  1. michael lesueur

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    A question I have been seriously looking into is if we can see biblical support for Universal Salvation , I am surprised I am finding it. The mere thought of the possibility of everyone being saved seems incredible , but if " All things are possible to those who believe it" , why would it not be possible with God? If God believes it. Still I am a firm believer in biblical support, or we waste our hopes; but we can also biblically " Hope all things", and I really hope this for humanity, because we NEED to be saved, ALL of us, not just some of us. But I understand this is just not traditional thought ; some even think it blasphemy; imagine that, hoping for everyone to be with God, to some considered as a wrong thought. I think its the best gospel I have ever considered. Anyhow, what about biblical evidence for it?

    In Job 23:13, " But he is of one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth,even that he does." Here we see God does what he desires to do and no human can stop him and turn him away from it, believer or not. In 1 Tim. 2:3-4, it states interestingly, " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires that all men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." All men to be saved is a direct meaning of Universal Salvation, and here its something God views as both good and acceptable , yet even many believers in him just do not accept this concept of the salvation of all. Interesting contradiction , of which I understand those who cannot see this, it is hard to believe, after learning the concept of limited salvation for so long in our lives. but don't get me wrong, I have found over 700 scriptures that lead along these lines, I am not some heretic.

    Why did God sent Jesus here? In 1John 4:14, "We have seen and do testify that he Father sent the Son to " Be the Saviour of the World', and here " World means everyone!" God sent Jesus here for ALL of humanity, not just believers. Even Jesus taught that he came not to call the righteous, or believers, but unbelievers to repent. He was sent, came here for those not believing. But of course believers are included , its just that the unbelievers NEED this more! And God knows that. In Titus 2:11 the concept is that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL of mankind. All of us. This is the result of God's great love and Kindness, Titus 3;4 , toward humanity.

    Yet this concept is hard to see for some, because we have been taught the gospels of separation and not inclusion. So we separate salvation from unbelievers; look at 1 Tim.4;10, "We therefore both labour and suffer reproach , because we trust in the living God, " Who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially those who believe." Obviously BOTH groups are saved here, " All men - or unbelievers", and then especially believers! None are being left out. What greater gospel could there be?
     
  2. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    I personally believe everyone will be saved, including all the Christians who insist I can't possibly be saved as long as I believe everyone will be saved lol.
     
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  3. ronandcarol

    ronandcarol Member
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    My view is this, God has predestined everyone to spend eternity with Him! BUT,
    than He gave us free-will! It is because of our free-will that we will be sinful beyond the Holy Nature of Heaven. So then God's plan of redemption, that was in place before the foundations of the earth, which sent His only Son to earth to die for our sins, so that we could once again be reconciled with God. BUT, even after being reconciled, many are still rebellious sinners, so consequently the road to salvation is the very narrow road that few will stay on, but the six lane freeway to hell is bumper to bumper. BUT,
    God in His mercy has put many exits for us on that freeway that takes us away from Him. Don't wait until the end of the trip to take an exit, take the first one you come to.
    ronandcarol
     
  4. michael lesueur

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    Well again I refer to scripture, because its not what Christians say, Salvation is totally based on God, Christ and what the bible is saying. I mean I would have no leg to stand on for believing it and its just not in there to see.

    The scriptures are there, we just see them so differently and interpret them so separately than each other.

    Notice these scriptures on just the simple inclusive term " All."

    Do You Believe All in the Bible?

    " All" is so inclusive and encompassing grace and love which is based on mercy. Your not going to leave me out if you love me and have great compassion on me , nor will you place some incredible weight on me to just save myself. You will come for me, my friends and enemies and get us all.
     
  5. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    I think the main biblical verse which makes a belief in universal salvation possible is 1 Corinthians 15:28

    When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.
    One may legitimately inquire: how can God be "all in all" at the end of time, if some people are eternally separated from His presence?

    Colossians 1:17-20 is another key scriptural authority for this concept, given that it supports Christ's universal act of reconciliation through His sacrifice on the cross:

    "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross."
     
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  6. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    The Bible doesn't say God predestined everyone to heaven and then gave them free will (which makes no sense)- it says he foreordained those that would receive his mercy and made everyone else vessels of wrath. See Romans 9:22-23

    @ronandcarol
     
  7. michael lesueur

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    I agree, the scriptures are just there; All and in All is just inclusive of everyone, and that makes much more salvation sense to me, why limit the Kingdom of God? They tried that approach on Jesus in Matt. 23:13, Jesus acused them of " Shutting up the Kingdom of heaven against men." Trying to keep certain people out of the very Kingdom of God with their limited atonement beliefs.
     
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  8. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    This passage and Pauline soteriology in general has been misunderstood in traditional (especially Protestant) exegesis until the advent of modern scholarship.

    Paul, in his original Jewish context, was talking about the corporate election of Israel (and by extension the new community of God, the Church) by God and not individual predestination to heaven or hell i.e.

    Predestination - Wikipedia

    The Catholic biblical commentator Brendan Byrne wrote that the predestination mentioned in this passage should be interpreted as applied to the Christian community corporately rather than individuals.[6] Another Catholic commentator, Joseph Fitzmyer, wrote that this passage teaches that God has predestined the salvation of all humans.[7]
     
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  9. allfoak

    allfoak Alchemist

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    It's very simple.
    So simple that somehow Christians have over looked the idea completely.
    The soul of man is eternal.
    There is no way that Christians can argue with this concept, it is all over the scriptures.
    Why would God punish for eternity an eternal soul?
    Kind of dumb.
    Our soul has an eternity to become perfect and certainly God is in no hurry.
    In fact; if our Souls are eternal and
    God is eternal, which one is which?
    Is our soul God or is God our soul?
    If they are both eternal they must in some way be one.
    Universal salvation is mandatory.
     
  10. michael lesueur

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    Well I agree , and I do not believe in that doctrine of eternal hell punishment; its barbaric and has evil overtones to it, in my view.

    Honest Questions and Answers about Hell
     
  11. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Alright @Vouthon I'll have a look at the material provided
     
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  12. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    You will notice that one of the scholars mentioned in my reference above is Joseph Augustine Fitzmyer, S.J. (1920 – 2016) who was an American Catholic priest of the Society of Jesus and professor emeritus at The Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.

    He specialized in biblical studies, particularly the New Testament, though he also made contributions to the study of the Dead Sea Scrolls and early Jewish literature.

    This article summarizes some of his scholarly interpretations of St. Paul's theology in Romans, if your interested to read more:

    Predestination and Freewill: Joseph Fitzmyer

    Fitzmyer understands Paul on this point to be speaking corporately:

    “He does not have in mind the predestination of individuals (either glory or damnation). Such an interpretation of these chapters began with Augustine in his controversy with Pelagians, and it has distracted interpreters of Romans from the main thrust of Paul’s discussion in these chapters since…. Paul begins by affirming that everything that happens to Christians in earthly life is somehow governed by God’s providence.”[9]

    Fitzmyer believes Romans 9:6-13 to be primarily concerned with God’s role concerning the corporate people of Israel, not the issue of individual predestination and salvation.[10] The salvation history of Israel, of primary consideration for Paul, becomes born out later in chapter nine. Paul does not have individual soteriological concerns in mind; instead he is interested in the power of God over the people of Israel.

    Indeed, “Paul uses this OT image [Potter and Clay] to inculcate the idea that a creature cannot really ask God to account for his ways. Hence the fact that Israel has reacted as it has to God’s new mode of salvation argues in no way that God has lost control of Israel.”[11] Thus, for Fitzmyer, while there are soteriological concerns that can be drawn from Romans 7-9, they must be derived from this passage carefully.

    Interpreters must consider that Paul does not directly have individual soteriology in mind when writing the passage and that when he does consider soteriological concerns, he does so on a corporate level in considering the election of the people of Israel as the people of God.
     
  13. michael lesueur

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    In Romans 5:18 it states that by the righteousness of one " Free Gift" came the justification of life on all men." Here it refers to salvation as being obviously free and justifies us all, so no limiting price can be set on it by any religion. Salvation really is a free for all! Nothing can separate any human from this great salvation. Titus 3:7 repeats this justification of grace and calls eternal life a hope. And I hope that for all, and hold every biblical right of belief to do so.

    Jesus did not get beat on the cross in order that many of us be beaten in some hell for eternity. The gospel is called the gospel of grace, Gal. 1:6, the grace of Christ ; undeserved, unmerited. But still belonging to all of us. Its for ALL flesh, Acts 11:17.

    Wow!
     
  14. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    No leg to stand on??? Who are they to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And you will stand, for the Lord is able to make you stand.
     
  15. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Alright @Vouthon, I gave it a looksie. I hope you won't begrudge me if I entertain a doubt at Fitzmyer's conclusion. After all, Origen believed in predestination according to your link, and he was an early father. I understand that Origen is not necessarily who a Catholic would have me look at- but I am standing outside the Christian tradition.

    Understand that from my perspective- I see in Origen one of the most brilliant minds of the Hellenic world, which there's little denying he was.

    There's very few people in the early church or the late Hellenic period I'd trust higher than Origen. Even Celsus and other opponents of Origen couldn't call him a fool.
     
    #15 Buddha Dharma, Mar 1, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
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  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Hello and welcome to RF. :)

    I would like to address these points if I may.

    The scriptures that you quote are all very nice and positive, but I see that you don't quote the ones that disagree with universal salvation....? Are you deliberately ignoring them or are you just not aware of them?

    For example....when Jesus comes as judge of all the world.....what happens to those who don't pass his judgment?

    Matthew 25:31-46..."When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. . . .
    And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ . . . .
    Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
    (ESV)

    This is NOT describing universal salvation, is it? The "sheep" will gain life...but "goats" will suffer the same penalty as the devil....an "everlasting fire". But even here the translation of "everlasting fire" is misleading. The meaning of the Greek word "kolasis" is "punishment, not "fire". So what is this everlasting "punishment"?

    Jesus said to the hypocritical Pharisees...."Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?" What is "Ge·henʹna" (often translated "hell")? Misunderstanding and misinterpreting the meaning of this word has led Christendom to believe a malicious lie. The fires of Ge·henʹna are the basis for the fires of "hell". Yet this was never a Jewish belief. Jews believed that "sheol" (Hades) was simply the grave where all eventually sleep, resting in peace whilst awaiting the coming resurrection back to life on earth. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

    When Jesus mentioned Ge·henʹna, he was referring to the Valley of Hinnom which was just outside the walls of Jerusalem. Apostate Israel fell to sacrificing their children to the false god Molech in this valley, so King Josiah turned the valley into a rubbish dump so that this practice could not continue. (2 Kings 23:10) As a rubbish tip, Gehenna had fires continually burning to consume the city's refuse. The carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals, not considered worthy of a decent burial, were cast into the flames for disposal. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.

    To his Jewish audience, Gehenna was a symbol of eternal death. Having no burial tomb to a Jew, meant not being remembered by God in the resurrection of the dead under Messiah's kingdom. It represented a death from which there is no return to life. That is why Revelation calls the "lake of fire" "the second death". It is not a literal place.

    Revelation 21:8, RS: As for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

    Matthew 7:13, 14, RS: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

    Jude 5, RS: “I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    Matthew 24:13, RS: He who endures to the end will be saved"

    Hebrews 10:26, 27, RS: “If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.”


    2 Thessalonians 1:6-9, RS: since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might”

    There are more, and since the Bible does not contradict itself, the scriptures that you provided must mean something else. There is no universal salvation in the Bible....though many want it to mean that everyone can be saved without effort or qualification.......Sorry, that is simply not true.

    For example...you used 1 Tim. 2:3-4...."For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires that all men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."


    Just because God "desires" that 'all be saved', doesn't mean that they will be....other scripture tells us that judgment will mean that many will not gain salvation. The other scriptures you mentioned can also be interpreted very differently.

    Realistically, God has requirements that must be met if we are to gain salvation. What was the point of the Law if that was not the case?

    The final nail in the coffin is Jesus' judgment of those who acknowledge him as their "Lord"....

    Matthew 7:21-23 RS, Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’"

    Matthew 25:41 tells us where these one will "depart" to. You can't make scripture say what you want it to. :(
     
  17. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    Actually, Origen is accounted one of the Fathers of my Church (as you noted) and is greatly respected for his contributions to biblical exegesis, mysticism etc.

    Nobody doubts his brilliance as one of the most enlightened minds of the early church with enduring influence upon Catholic history and doctrine. For example, the preceding Pope Benedict XVI devoted an entire general audience to him back in 2007:

    See on the Vatican website:

    General Audience of 25 April 2007: Origen of Alexandria (1) | BENEDICT XVI


    POPE BENEDICT XVI

    GENERAL AUDIENCE

    St Peter's Square
    Wednesday, 25 April 2007

    Origen of Alexandria: life and work (1)

    Dear Brothers and Sisters,

    In our meditations on the great figures of the early Church, today we become acquainted with one of the most remarkable. Origen of Alexandria truly was a figure crucial to the whole development of Christian thought. He gathered up the legacy of Clement of Alexandria, on whom we meditated last Wednesday, and launched it for the future in a way so innovative that he impressed an irreversible turning point on the development of Christian thought.

    He was a true "maestro",
    and so it was that his pupils remembered him with nostalgia and emotion: he was not only a brilliant theologian but also an exemplary witness of the doctrine he passed on. Eusebius of Caesarea, his enthusiastic biographer, said "his manner of life was as his doctrine, and his doctrine as his life. Therefore, by the divine power working with him he aroused a great many to his own zeal" (cf. Church History, 6, 3, 7).

    His whole life was pervaded by a ceaseless longing for martyrdom. He was 17 years old when, in the 10th year of the reign of Emperor Septimius Severus, the persecution against Christians was unleashed in Alexandria. Clement, his teacher, fled the city, and Origen's father, Leonides, was thrown into prison. His son longed ardently for martyrdom but was unable to realize his desire. So he wrote to his father, urging him not to shrink from the supreme witness of faith. And when Leonides was beheaded, the young Origen felt bound to welcome the example of his father's life.

    Forty years later, while preaching in Caesarea, he confessed: "It is of no use to me to have a martyr father if I do not behave well and honour the nobility of my ancestors, that is, the martyrdom of my father and the witness that made him illustrious in Christ" (Hom. Ez 4, 8). In a later homily—when, thanks to the extreme tolerance of the Emperor, Philip the Arab, the possibility of bearing witness by shedding one's blood seemed no longer to exist—Origen exclaims: "If God were to grant me to be washed in my blood so as to receive the second Baptism after accepting death for Christ, I would depart this world with assurance.... But those who deserve such things are blessed" (Hom. Iud. 7, 12). These words reveal the full force of Origen's longing for Baptism with blood.

    And finally, this irresistible yearning was granted to him, at least in part. In the year 250, during Decius' persecution, Origen was arrested and cruelly tortured. Weakened by the suffering to which he had been subjected, he died a few years later. He was not yet 70.

    We have mentioned the "irreversible turning point" that Origen impressed upon the history of theology and Christian thought. But of what did this turning point, this innovation so pregnant with consequences, consist? It corresponds in substance to theology's foundation in the explanation of the Scriptures.

    Theology to him was essentially explaining, understanding Scripture; or we might also say that his theology was a perfect symbiosis between theology and exegesis. In fact, the proper hallmark of Origen's doctrine seems to lie precisely in the constant invitation to move from the letter to the spirit of the Scriptures, to progress in knowledge of God. Furthermore, this so-called "allegorism", as von Balthasar wrote, coincides exactly "with the development of Christian dogma, effected by the teaching of the Church Doctors", who in one way or another accepted Origen's "lessons".

    Thus, Tradition and the Magisterium, the foundation and guarantee of theological research, come to take the form of "scripture in action" (cf. Origene: Il mondo, Cristo e la Chiesa, Milan, 1972, p. 43). We can therefore say that the central nucleus of Origen's immense literary opus consists in his "threefold interpretation" of the Bible.

    But before describing this "interpretation" it would be right to take an overall look at the Alexandrian's literary production.

    St Jerome, in his Epistle 33, lists the titles of 320 books and 310 homilies by Origen. Unfortunately, most of these works have been lost, but even the few that remain make him the most prolific author of Christianity's first three centuries. His field of interest extended from exegesis to dogma, to philosophy, apologetics, ascetical theology and mystical theology. It was a fundamental and global vision of Christian life.

    The inspiring nucleus of this work, as we have said, was the "threefold interpretation" of the Scriptures that Origen developed in his lifetime. By this phrase, we wish to allude to the three most important ways in which Origen devoted himself to studying the Scriptures: they are not in sequence; on the contrary, more often than not they overlap.

    First of all, he read the Bible, determined to do his utmost to ascertain the biblical text and offer the most reliable version of it. This, for example, was the first step: to know truly what is written and what a specific scriptural passage intentionally and principally meant.

    He studied extensively for this purpose and drafted an edition of the Bible with six parallel columns, from left to right, with the Hebrew text in Hebrew characters - he was even in touch with rabbis to make sure he properly understood the Bible's original Hebrew text -, then the Hebrew text transliterated into Greek characters, and then four different translations in Greek that enabled him to compare the different possibilities for its translation. Hence comes the title of "Hexapla" ("six columns"), attributed to this enormous synopsis.

    This is the first point: to know exactly what was written, the text as such.

    Secondly, Origen read the Bible systematically with his famous Commentaries. They reproduced faithfully the explanations that the teacher offered during his lessons at Alexandria and Caesarea.

    Origen proceeded verse by verse with a detailed, broad and analytical approach, with philological and doctrinal notes. He worked with great precision in order to know completely what the sacred authors meant.

    Lastly, even before his ordination to the priesthood, Origen was deeply dedicated to preaching the Bible and adapted himself to a varied public. In any case, the teacher can also be perceived in his Homilies, wholly dedicated as he was to the systematic interpretation of the passage under examination, which he analyzed step by step in the sequence of the verses.

    Also in his Homilies, Origen took every opportunity to recall the different dimensions of the sense of Sacred Scripture that encourage or express a process of growth in the faith: there is the "literal" sense, but this conceals depths that are not immediately apparent.

    The second dimension is the "moral" sense: what we must do in living the word; and finally, the "spiritual" sense, the unity of Scripture which throughout its development speaks of Christ.

    It is the Holy Spirit who enables us to understand the Christological content, hence, the unity in diversity of Scripture. It would be interesting to demonstrate this. I have made a humble attempt in my book, Jesus of Nazareth, to show in today's context these multiple dimensions of the Word, of Sacred Scripture, whose historical meaning must in the first place be respected.

    But this sense transcends us, moving us towards God in the light of the Holy Spirit, and shows us the way, shows us how to live. Mention of it is found, for example, in the ninth Homily on Numbers, where Origen likens Scripture to [fresh] walnuts: "The doctrine of the Law and the Prophets at the school of Christ is like this", the homilist says; "the letter is bitter, like the [green-covered] skin; secondly, you will come to the shell, which is the moral doctrine; thirdly, you will discover the meaning of the mysteries, with which the souls of the saints are nourished in the present life and the future" (Hom. Num. 9, 7).

    It was especially on this route that Origen succeeded in effectively promoting the "Christian interpretation" of the Old Testament, brilliantly countering the challenge of the heretics, especially the Gnostics and Marcionites, who made the two Testaments disagree to the extent that they rejected the Old Testament.

    In this regard, in the same Homily on Numbers, the Alexandrian says, "I do not call the Law an "Old Testament' if I understand it in the Spirit. The Law becomes an "Old Testament' only for those who wish to understand it carnally", that is, for those who stop at the literal meaning of the text.

    But "for us, who understand it and apply it in the Spirit and in the Gospel sense, the Law is ever new and the two Testaments are a new Testament for us, not because of their date in time but because of the newness of the meaning.... Instead, for the sinner and those who do not respect the covenant of love, even the Gospels age" (cf. ibid., 9, 4).

    I invite you - and so I conclude - to welcome into your hearts the teaching of this great master of faith. He reminds us with deep delight that in the prayerful reading of Scripture and in consistent commitment to life, the Church is ever renewed and rejuvenated. The Word of God, which never ages and is never exhausted, is a privileged means to this end. Indeed, it is the Word of God, through the action of the Holy Spirit, which always guides us to the whole truth (cf. Benedict XVI, Address at the International Congress for the 50th Anniversary of Dei Verbum, L'Osservatore Romano English edition, 21 September 2005, p. 7)
    .

    I'm not sure why you got the impression that we wouldn't want people to look at him, his works are published on the Church's website of the Fathers i.e.


    CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis (Origen)
    CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsum (Origen)
    CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to Gregory (Origen)
    CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to Africanus (Origen)
    CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on John (Origen)
    CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on Matthew (Origen)
     
    #17 Vouthon, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  18. michael lesueur

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    Oh your correct
    Deeje , there are scriptures as you listed which give a different view, but as we can see, both sides are there. In my view of scripture, there are just more to support Universal salvation , the everlasting hell is just mentioned a few times, and has been totally removed from some bibles.

    http://www.thehypertexts.com/How many tines is hell mentioned in% Bible.htm20the

    So it has to fall to our personal interpretations at best.
     
  19. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    @Vouthon I've always been under the impression Origen is considered somewhat heterodox by the Church
     
  20. michael lesueur

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    They thought he was certainly different.
     
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