Is Trinity in the Bible?

[Quiddity]

I'm not a Christian after all. I am a Baha`i. Trinity may be a Christian Doctrine, but it's not doctrinal for all Christians, and it is obviously extra-Biblical in origin. The problem with allowing tradition to become doctrine is that you can't really count on tradition to be truth rather than convenience.

That's great that you believe that...but really I can't say I hold it in high regard. You've shown your vast knowledge in Christian history to be wanting. So forgive me if I don't take what you say anything more then an opinion.

And I don't expect someone who comes from a tradition of squabbling over the Hadith to hold "tradition" in high regard. You see, we all have our presuppositions, biases, etc. that come from our ancestors. The difference is I know I believe in tradition, while you'll continue to think everything you believe was handed down to you by God himself...

 

[Popeyesays]

Fair enough Popeyesays, but you should try to keep in mind that Baha'i viewpoints are not given the time of day in most religious circles, therefore the Baha'i POV is, in essence, amusing but definitely lacking in recognized credibility.

Whatever it may be or not be, the faith is not obscure anymore. And it is rapidly becoming even better known. Google us sometime. You'll find that as we become less obscure the number of opposing websites soar.

Bahai-2.4 million+ hits.
Christianity = 62 million hits.

That's about 4% of the number of hits for Christianity and there are only 7 million or so Baha`i's in the world which is about 0.00008% of the world population.

Regards,
Scott

 

[sojourner]

Why do you take the discussion so personally? Have I destroyed YOUR beliefs? I doubt it.

Most would welcome discussing, it's how we best come to understanding of ourselves and others. In the end, your beliefs are your own, and I have no fear God will treat you kindly. Would you as a Christian say the same for me? Or am I beyond God's good pleasure?

Regards,
Scott

You don't know me very well, by the looks of your last two questions. In fact, it would appear that my stance is far more accepting than your own. At least I let you own the veracity of your own beliefs.

This isn't discussing. It's saber-rattling. How blessed are we poor, misguided Christians, that one so enlightened as yourself is here to set us straight about our own doctrine.

Your statement, "The Trinity is obviously extra-Biblical" is not only opinion, it's hubris. I don't care if you don't see it revealed Biblically. There are many Christians who do, and that's why the Tradition developed in the first place. That doesn't make us "stupid," or "wrong," or "misguided," or "gullible." It makes us Christians.

Personal? If so, you made it that way.

 

[sojourner]

Whatever it may be or not be, the faith is not obscure anymore. And it is rapidly becoming even better known. Google us sometime. You'll find that as we become less obscure the number of opposing websites soar.

Bahai-2.4 million+ hits.
Christianity = 62 million hits.

That's about 4% of the number of hits for Christianity and there are only 7 million or so Baha`i's in the world which is about 0.00008% of the world population.

Regards,
Scott

So, now the world-wide web is a prophet, revealing who has the greatest grasp of faith? This is absurd. People check you out because they don't know anything about you -- since your numbers are not so great. It has nothing to do with who has the best handle on faith.

 

[Popeyesays]

You don't know me very well, by the looks of your last two questions. In fact, it would appear that my stance is far more accepting than your own. At least I let you own the veracity of your own beliefs.

This isn't discussing. It's saber-rattling. How blessed are we poor, misguided Christians, that one so enlightened as yourself is here to set us straight about our own doctrine.

Your statement, "The Trinity is obviously extra-Biblical" is not only opinion, it's hubris. I don't care if you don't see it revealed Biblically. There are many Christians who do, and that's why the Tradition developed in the first place. That doesn't make us "stupid," or "wrong," or "misguided," or "gullible." It makes us Christians.

Personal? If so, you made it that way.

I apologize if you have taken anything I said as rattling a saber. It was not intended so.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

. . . .The difference is I know I believe in tradition, while you'll continue to think everything you believe was handed down to you by God himself...

That's the point, Victor. Jesus delivered a message from God, directly. Tradition pales in comparison. The Baha`i Faith has a great deal of tradition, but we don't allow it to become doctrine.

Baha`u'llah is speaking in particular of Islam's tradition in this but it has a grain of truth for every other Revelation:

"This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.

Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God...."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 171)



Regards,

Scott

 

[sojourner]

That's the point, Victor. Jesus delivered a message from God, directly. Tradition pales in comparison. The Baha`i Faith has a great deal of tradition, but we don't allow it to become doctrine.

Baha`u'llah is speaking in particular of Islam's tradition in this but it has a grain of truth for every other Revelation:

"This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.

Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God...."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 171)



Regards,

Scott

But, for you, revelation is made present in a different way. You have revelators (that's not what you call them -- you call them..."Bab," is that right?) to reveal the living message to you. We rely much more heavily on Tradition. Every revelation, for us, must be tested against scripture, tradition, and reason. Revelation, for us, is not "new information," but "new insight." That's the way in which revelation is a "living" thing. Am I right in thinking that the Bab brings new information to light for you? Help me out a little here -- I'm spitting in the dark, I'm afraid.:shout

 

[Quiddity]

That's the point, Victor. Jesus delivered a message from God, directly. Tradition pales in comparison. The Baha`i Faith has a great deal of tradition, but we don't allow it to become doctrine.

Baha`u'llah is speaking in particular of Islam's tradition in this but it has a grain of truth for every other Revelation:

"This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.

Our purpose is to show that should the loved ones of God sanctify their hearts and their ears from the vain sayings that were uttered aforetime, and turn with their inmost souls to Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation, and to whatsoever things He hath manifested, such behavior would be regarded as highly meritorious in the sight of God...."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 171)

There is fundamental disagreement here that deserves further discussion and examination. I'd be more then glad to discuss this further with you if you so wish (one on one?). However, take a good read at this:
Mark P. Shea: What is Sacred Tradition?

....before we do continue. Let me know if you wish to continue.

 

[Popeyesays]

But, for you, revelation is made present in a different way. You have revelators (that's not what you call them -- you call them..."Bab," is that right?) to reveal the living message to you. We rely much more heavily on Tradition. Every revelation, for us, must be tested against scripture, tradition, and reason. Revelation, for us, is not "new information," but "new insight." That's the way in which revelation is a "living" thing. Am I right in thinking that the Bab brings new information to light for you? Help me out a little here -- I'm spitting in the dark, I'm afraid.:shout

The Bab is ONE not a class. He was born Siyyid Ali Muhammed al Shirazi in 1819 CE. Baha`u'llah was another, part of a Twin Manifestation foretold in Islam (and some might say the Bible as well). THe Bab performed much the same function for Baha`u'llah as John the Baptist did for Jesus, but the Bab did reveal a Book as well.

The spiritual laws revealed are pretty much identical through all the revelations:
Don't murder, Love one another, God is One, Do unto others as you would like to be treated, etc., etc.,. The SOCIAL laws on the other hand are subject to change according to the needs of man in the day of Revelation. These social laws include such things as prayer, fasting, marriage, divorce, the rearing of children, inheritance, civil law, etc..

We test every revelation and every Revealer by the test Jesus gave us: By their fruits ye know them.

If you want a fairly quick over-view of the Bahai Faith, check out The Bahá'ís You can follow the links to short articles that explain it better than I in most instances.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TrueBlue2]

One thing is crystal clear. Wherever we find discussion of the Trinity we find confusion, chaos, and debate. In my opinion, this could not be the teaching of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Popeyesays]

One thing is crystal clear. Wherever we find discussion of the Trinity we find confusion, chaos, and debate. In my opinion, this could not be the teaching of the Holy Spirit!

The doctrine was born in strife, for sure.

Regards,
Scott

 

[sojourner]

One thing is crystal clear. Wherever we find discussion of the Trinity we find confusion, chaos, and debate. In my opinion, this could not be the teaching of the Holy Spirit!

I dunno...we are in agreement enough to say the Nicene Creed, which has stood the Church well for 1700 years...so far...

 

[blueman]

Does the word Trinity have to be in the Bible for you to believe in the diety of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Rephrase the question to read " Is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit referenced in your Bible? I think the doctrine itself is referenced throughout the New Testament without the word Trinity needing to validate the doctrine in any way.

 

[Popeyesays]

Does the word Trinity have to be in the Bible for you to believe in the diety of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Rephrase the question to read " Is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit referenced in your Bible? I think the doctrine itself is referenced throughout the New Testament without the word Trinity needing to validate the doctrine in any way.

The terms do not bother me, they are appropriate in context. However, the context NEVER includes chopping GOD into three pieces all co-equal, or multiplying God by three just to explain the nature of Messenger.

As an explanation it is not of much use.

As to the Nicene Creed, its original purpose was to create a loyalty oath that would exclude some Christians from the Church, that is not a moral thing, in my estimation.

Regards,
Scott

Regards,
Scott

 

[blueman]

There could be one God resident in three personalities, all sharing the same attributes of diety. God has told us in His word that "My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts". There are mysteries associated with an almighty God that have yet to be revealed to the feebleness of the human psyche.

 

[Popeyesays]

There could be one God resident in three personalities, all sharing the same attributes of diety. God has told us in His word that "My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts". There are mysteries associated with an almighty God that have yet to be revealed to the feebleness of the human psyche.

We were created as rational beings. We are also told over and over again that God is ONE. Trinity does not make sense, given that primary truth.

"Question. -- What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?

Answer. -- The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.[1]
[1 Cf. "Pantheism," p. 290.]

"God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion 114 of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man [1] is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 112)

Regards,
Scott

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Wow, this thread is still humping along? Has anyone learned anything? Has anyone changed their view? Is this all just mental masturbation?

 

[Popeyesays]

Wow, this thread is still humping along? Has anyone learned anything? Has anyone changed their view? Is this all just mental masturbation?

Did we ever intend to change anyone's mind? It's a discussion, rational discussion is never mental masturbation because it's social intercourse.

Regards,
Scott

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Did we ever intend to change anyone's mind? It's a discussion, rational discussion is never mental masturbation because it's social intercourse.

Regards,
Scott

.....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Wow, this thread is still humping along? Has anyone learned anything? Has anyone changed their view? Is this all just mental masturbation?

Well I can't remember who did it but the debate sat for a while then some one, maybe a new person, sparked the debate again. I think all of these debates (Is Yeshua God, Is trinity in the bible etc) will either go on forever or die out due to bordum.