Is torture ever acceptable?

[Spirit of Light]

Let’s just stick with the original hypothetical and leave you out of it entirely.
Does the right of a single human not to be to be tortured outweigh the rights of millions not to be murdered?

As a buddhist i understand karma, and if millions of people was killed most likely it has to do with repayment of karma. and again.... torture is wrong action.

you can turn the question in any way you want, you get the same answer every from me.

 

[Milton Platt]

I understand your position and not trying to change your mind, necessarily.
Don’t understand the karma thing

How do you know the karma of the individual supercedes the karma of the millions? How do you know the karma of the individual does not involve him being tortured? How do you know the karma of millions of people (infants and the unborn included) exactly coincides and they all happen to live within range of the device’s zone of distruction?

Again, not trying to change your mind, just not understanding how you got to your position.
Not arguing whether you personally should torture anyone, only that the act might be justified in some instances.
This is a very interesting topic. Thanks for debating your viewpoint with me.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Karma in my understanding is that when do a good deed or living a morally right life one gain good virtue and if one have done a lot of wron doing in life one have to repay it by suffering.
In the situation you described the karma work a bit different because of the big amount of people who would die it also come from earlier life (buddhists belive in reincarnation) and if one has acumulated to much karma one actually will die, and most often this happens in a big disaster so it look like a normal way of dying, but actually it is karma related.

Karma in it self means cause of action, so bad action the cause is bad outcome, good karma/virtu give good outcome.

About the person you would want torture, i would not harm him because if i harmed him i would not be any better then him. i also must watch my action, speach and thoughts so i do not acumulate more negative karma toward my self.

You would not be able to change my way of thinking because i do not doubt the buddhist teaching

 

[Milton Platt]

I have a passing familiarity with Buddhism. There is much to recommend it’s teachings in some instances. I do not share your belief in reincarnation, and I do not believe in karma.
I think both are unfounded assertions.
But that helps explain your position.
Just wondering, though..... if you thought there was a chance of the authorities torturing an individual, why would you turn a person over to them and become complicit by doing so. How does that beget good karma?

For me, the welfare of the many tends to outweigh the welfare of the one

 

[Spirit of Light]

I have a passing familiarity with Buddhism. There is much to recommend it’s teachings in some instances. I do not share your belief in reincarnation, and I do not believe in karma.
I think both are unfounded assertions.
But that helps explain your position.
Just wondering, though..... if you thought there was a chance of the authorities torturing an individual, why would you turn a person over to them and become complicit by doing so. How does that beget good karma?

For me, the welfare of the many tends to outweigh the welfare of the one

I would tell them that i would not want him tortured, but ofcourse i can not stop them, but as long i follow the law of giving him to police, i have done what i could do. and if i should gain karma from it, that is something i must live with

 

[stvdv]

But you could be said to have culpability because you did not try everything you could to obtain the location.

As to handing him to authorities, what guarrantee do you have that they would not torture him?

Other scenario. I am vegetarian. I don't want animals to be killed. Should I torture all the meat eaters, to stop them killing?

No of course not. Humans have a free choice as regard of their belief. No need to make someone feel guilty for his belief.

Then you use the same tactic as some religious people do, using Hell and Jesus story combined with guilt to win you over.

Hindu religion has a nice solution. Some people are born as warriors, others are born as kings, workers, priests etc.
There is not 1 Dharma for all. They call it SwaDharma. Everyone has his/her own Dharma.
This can stop useless blaming and guilt plays I see in other religions too often.

 

[stvdv]

Not arguing whether you personally should torture anyone, only that the act might be justified in some instances.

It is all hypothetically what you describe. I know myself a little bit. I don't like physical pain, let alone being tortured by others.

When I first read about Buddhism I fell in love with this non violence of Buddha. But I am also a realist, so I know it might take forever to really be that advanced that I could sacrifice my life to save another.

Once I had root canal pain. Very bad. I thought okay let's test this, compared to torture it's nothing. I will not go to the dentist. Pain was almost unbearable. After 1 year another tooth got same trouble. I managed to not go to the dentist for 7 years I think. Then I decided "enough is enough".

It's nice to discuss hypothetical situations. But when "torture" starts you probably act totally different then when contemplating torture in your bed.

Bottom line: I wish I had the love and compassion of Buddha, but I have not (yet). I try my best not to hurt other living beings, hence also vegetarian. That's an easy start compared to endure torture. If I choose that for me torture is not justified, does not mean at all that torture is not justified for you. I do not think in this kind of Christian way "One belief for all". I do not judge others for doing their dharma. I only have to follow mine.

For me killing is not justified (but that's also relative). But for sure it can be justified for you. That is how I see it. Even for me it can be justified 1 day and not justified another day. Not 1 day is the same. We all evolve. Our Dharma changes with how we live. If I would join the army then my Dharma changes and I am justified to kill humans. I don't want to kill, so I used the option to do social service instead (using the Buddha teaching to explain I do not want to kill, it does not feel good to my conscience).

 

[stvdv]

Many think "yes but if you do not defend you self you et killed" Yes that may be the result of torture, but i have compassion toward the person(s) who would do me wrong.

That's very advanced. I need to meditate more. But I do have this kind of compassion towards animals. I am vegetarian, and I would not eat meat even if it means I would die (that is relatively easy for me, because dying I can handle. Torture and pain is more difficult for me).

 

[Milton Platt]

I would tell them that i would not want him tortured, but ofcourse i can not stop them, but as long i follow the law of giving him to police, i have done what i could do. and if i should gain karma from it, that is something i must live with

Okay, I understand now. You think good karma will occur for turning him over to authorities. If they then tortured him, does that potentially erase the good karma?

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's very advanced. I need to meditate more. But I do have this kind of compassion towards animals. I am vegetarian, and I would not eat meat even if it means I would die (that is relatively easy for me, because dying I can handle. Torture and pain is more difficult for me).

It has taken me almost 20 years to accept and have compassion toward those who harm me or will harm me in the future and yes meditation do help in this way.

I was a vegetarian for many years, but then i realized. if the animal was not killed because of me or directly to me (some asian countries you buy live animal in the marked)
Then the meat in it self is not morally wrong to eat. but if someone killed the animal to make food directly to me, then it is not ok to eat the meat, because the animal died becase of me. and i would accumulate karma from eating it.

And when you can let go of the attachments to the meat in it self then you will realize that a lump of meat is not the rason we can not eat meat, it is the action of killing that is wrong doing.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Okay, I understand now. You think good karma will occur for turning him over to authorities. If they then tortured him, does that potentially erase the good karma?

Then it is no longer me that would gain the big karma, but you can say that yes no matter what i would do in a situation you describe i would accumulate some karma

 

[Milton Platt]

It has taken me almost 20 years to accept and have compassion toward those who harm me or will harm me in the future and yes meditation do help in this way.

I was a vegetarian for many years, but then i realized. if the animal was not killed because of me or directly to me (some asian countries you buy live animal in the marked)
Then the meat in it self is not morally wrong to eat. but if someone killed the animal to make food directly to me, then it is not ok to eat the meat, because the animal died becase of me. and i would accumulate karma from eating it.

And when you can let go of the attachments to the meat in it self then you will realize that a lump of meat is not the rason we can not eat meat, it is the action of killing that is wrong doing.

Do you believe it is wrong for all living things to kill for food, or just humans?

 

[Milton Platt]

Do you believe it is wrong for all living things to kill for food, or just humans?

Thanks for the informative conversation

I learned something about Buddhism from it
“Teaching without preaching”......I like that.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you believe it is wrong for all living things to kill for food, or just humans?

In my understanding it is morally guidelines for human beings, because animals react to instincts, and do not judge the situation as we do, but in my understanding even animals do gain negative form of karma when killing. But for human beings we accumulate a lot of karma if we kill because we can jusdge the situation as right or wrong action

 

[Spirit of Light]

Thanks for the informative conversation

I learned something about Buddhism from it
“Teaching without preaching”......I like that.

You are very welcome I can only answer out of my understanding of the buddha teaching so if you come across other buddhist who say different then i do, then you can think that they have a different level of understand thing of reality then what i have today. so we should never judge others for what they try to explain.
I do not judge you for asking me all this difficult questions, i did learn from it too

 

[stvdv]

It has taken me almost 20 years to accept and have compassion toward those who harm me or will harm me in the future and yes meditation do help in this way.

I was a vegetarian for many years, but then i realized. if the animal was not killed because of me or directly to me (some asian countries you buy live animal in the marked)
Then the meat in it self is not morally wrong to eat. but if someone killed the animal to make food directly to me, then it is not ok to eat the meat, because the animal died becase of me. and i would accumulate karma from eating it.

And when you can let go of the attachments to the meat in it self then you will realize that a lump of meat is not the rason we can not eat meat, it is the action of killing that is wrong doing.

I was a vegetarian for many years and then I realized that the Law in Economics "Every demand creates it's own supply" works here. When nobody buys meat nobody will produce meat. So then the killing will never happen. So the question of karma for killing does not even arise.

When one can let go of the attachments to the meat in it self then there is no need to eat it. As human we have plenty of other options I realized

Some groups like eskimo's have no other alternative then to eat meat. They have different Dharma then I have. And probably also different Karma. So I see it not as good/bad or right/wrong. It's more "as you sow so you reap". Not a God who will judge you. But there are Laws in physics that tell us "Every Action has its Reaction" ... which seems like the Law of Karma (just different wording).

Spoiler: My experience that Karma does exist

I had once a nice experience. Someone was not so nice to me, so I gave a reply. For others I would have sounded very nice, but I felt I was a bit harsh (normally I am super nice guy). So I told the universe "Please give me back my Karma of this act, if I created Karma, better now than later". Within ca. 5 or 10 min, an indian boy came running to me (I was in a big open field of 1 km around me) out of the blue and started shouting at me (inwardly I was smiling ... Oh my God ... Karma does exist). Then the boy disappeared and I never saw him back.

Once more I lost control of my words. And some time later someone threatened to kill me. So from that moment I decided to only speak nice (I already did my whole life, except a few exceptions). But I got some good proofs that Karma indeed exists, and I don't feel like creating any more troubles

 

[Shad]

Do you?

Please explain!

It is not acceptable even as an interrogation and information gathering method. It creates a punishment/reward dynamic based on pain and agenda driven goals. This makes it far more exposed to confirmation bias and responses based on reduction of pain not necessarily truth. Information is not reliable using such a method. More so the type of person required to fulfill this role involves deeply troubling aspects of human characteristic we normally suppress at a social and cultural level.

 

[Spiderman]

Evil people who harm others are already tortured.