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Featured Is this potential evidence for the resurrection of Christ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jos, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you skeptics ever do your proper due-diligence? Read it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    It's amazing the mountain of evidence for Jesus that you skeptics - in your folly - kick to the curb.
     
  3. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I donbt doubt that there was some person who formed the basis
    for "Jesus" stories, though that was not his name, and nobody
    knows where or when he was born or died.

    We understand of course, the urge to make things up like the
    nativity scene,and so forth. Or to think anyone would memorize
    verbatim a speech from decades earlier, and transcribe it to the
    syllable.

    We even get it that you need so badly to have your "evidence".

    It is kind of insulting of you though to think that just coz you
    have nothing means others are so intellectually dishonest
    as to avoid evidence.

    Intellectual dishonesty is not an exclusive for fundys, but
    every one of them has to embrace it. Projecting that fault
    on others tho? is that on gods list of approved activities?

    We are not amazed by someone mistaking a lot of nothing
    for a mountain, no more than we are amazed by someone
    thinking that is an adequate response to what I said.

    IF tho, you are interested in seeing people in their
    actual folly missing the mountain of evidence,check
    on the behaviour of flood believers.

    We are not amazed by it though as we have seen
    it so many times. And, as not ed, are thoroughly
    familiar with the lack of diligence, and the commitment
    to intellectual dishonesty that make for a fundy.
     
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  4. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    We just don't believe you.
     
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  5. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Emphasis on the YOU.
     
  6. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I would not say moot but not important. From my understanding, people on higher planes of consciousness can do what are considered miracles. But that is not setting aside laws of the universe but instead using capabilities most don't have.

    If you take modern technology into an area where the people don't know any such thing, it seems like a miracle that light can come from a metal box and sounds can come from almost nowhere. And with just a loud noise, animals fall down dead. What miracles to those that don't know modern technology. That's the sense I had in mind.
     
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  7. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you understand that not addressing my points by avoiding them and reposting your old points that's been dealt with, will not in any way make your argument any more valid. It didn't help your argument before, what makes you think those same points is going to help you this time?

    And as I recall, I knew and understood your own information better than you did. Only someone who doesn't study and fully understand their own sources of information would give evidence that help go against their own argument.
     
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  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    First, the proportion identifying as Christian is about 1/3, not 2/3. Don't get carried away.

    Belief is a cultural phenomenon, and very largely taught to children with the conscious intention that they should believe. Belief in gods is almost never a voluntary act from a neutral but informed stance.

    Of course, in the history of mankind there have been countless thousands, maybe millions, of divinities. Even that South American tribe who were hailed as a very rare example of a people without religious beliefs don't quite live up to their billing. It seems devising gods is something humans have evolved to do, perhaps because it's one of the factors, like having a common language and a common set of customs, stories, heroes, and so on, that reinforce tribal solidarity and cooperation, hence is beneficial to survival.

    This would account for the hole in the middle of religion that I keep referring to ─ the insistence that God is real, but the absence of any definition of a real god such that we could tell whether any real person or thing is god or not. This goes hand in hand with the absence of any concept of 'godhood', the quality that a real god would have and a real superscientist who could create universes, raise the dead, travel in time &c &c, would lack. These are two more factors that compel the conclusion that gods and spirits exist only in the imagination of the individual.

    So does the NT credibly record history? None of the NT's authors ever met an historical Jesus, nor does any claim to have done so. The starting point is that Mark is the only earthly bio of Jesus of any substance ─ Paul's Jesus is a demiurge with an earthly bio that fits in a couple of lines, and Matthew, Luke and John are Mark re-written to another's taste. And the author of Mark, in the midrash tradition, lets his fancy take flight as he moves his Jesus through a series of scenes based on passages from the Tanakh that seem to him able to serve as messianic prophecies. Therefore all of the miracles and many of the scenes are inventions, albeit of a traditional kind. Is there anything of history in it?

    There are two possibilities. The author of Mark may have had stories about an historical person; and/or he may have had sayings attributed to that person. It may be true, for example that there was an historical Jesus and that he fought with his family and never spoke of his mother but to vituperate her (a point copied in various forms in the other gospels).

    Or ─ since no historical Jesus is necessary to write a story based on episodes of the Tanakh ─ there may not have been a real person behind the reports, any more than there was a real Anu or Osiris or Zeus &c.

    Note too that Mark's Jesus is born into an ordinary Jewish family without fanfare or angelic messengers, is not descended from David, has to have his sins washed off by JtB, and only then becomes the son of God in the same manner that David became the son of God in Psalm 2:7 (affirmed in Acts 13:33). The authors of Matthew and Luke have picked up the 'fulfillment of purported prophecy' ball and run away with it. They invent a virgin mother, fake genealogies to make their Jesuses a descendant of David, invent a reason to get Jesus' parents to Bethlehem ─ the alleged 'massacre of the innocents' by Herod is as fictitious as the rest ─ and in and out of Egypt and so on. Their Jesus has God's own Y-chromosome, so presumably half God's DNA. The Jesus of the author of Johnis born of a Jewish woman and is descended from David, but no details are given; he, like Paul's Jesus, is the demiurge, created in heaven by God and creating the material universe.

    (And as for the Trinity, as I keep mentioning, each of the five Jesuses expressly denies that he's God.)

    No doubt belief doesn't care much about the facts. But in my view it's always beneficial to get the facts as straight as possible.
     
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  9. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    If you understood the Bible and the evidences presented you would be a Christian and not a skeptic.
     
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  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I'm familiar with a certain amount of the evidence.

    So ─ understood what about the bible, exactly?
     
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  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Does it examine the evidence that there was an historical Jesus to be resurrected?

    Given an historical Jesus, does it examine the problems with the resurrection reports? Does it underline the point that the story is essentially incredible and demands an extraordinarily high quality of evidence to demonstrate it as a fact of history? That on the contrary the evidence is of very poor quality, with no eyewitness account, no contemporary account, no independent account, and with all six biblical accounts contradicting the other five on major points? That none of the reports goes even close to establishing that Jesus' life systems had irreversibly ceased to function? That if there was an empty tomb, many much more credible explanations for that are available?

    If it doesn't, it's just a sermon, not a history lesson, no?
     
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  12. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    If you had any evidence to refute my points then you would have done so already, but you don't, that's why you're avoiding them right now.

    Answer this question, why are you not a Jew? If you can answer that then you would realize that you have nothing left after all your points got countered and is resorting to spewing out idiocracy. That's what happens when you don't know much about what you're trying to argue and don't fully understand it. When you're lacking in critical thinking and only know how to copy and paste what others wrote and post up links, you end up like you are right now, stumped because you can't come up with thoughts and ideas of your own.

    Since you're in such a bad shape right now, I help you out with my question and give you a clue. But that doesn't mean that you won't need your brain to do some thinking.

    Clue:
    I understand English and understand the books I read that were written by Englishmen, but I myself am not an Englishman.

    BTW, you don't have to understand the bible and the evidence presented, in order to become a Christian. You're living proof of that.
     
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Yes, I made a reasoned argument from silence, balanced by the actual documents. Your argument would therefore be "There are 27 NT documents plus apocrypha plus Roman and Jewish historians discussing the issues, but they're all garbage, and just as I'm on a forum writing COUNTER-DOCUMENTS NOW, there were ZERO counter-document then..."
     
  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Is it an ad populum and appeal to authority when skeptics say, "academia doesn't believe in the Christ or miracles"?

    Your "majority Catholics equal Christianity" is not the same argument, by the way. A multiplicity of wrong doctrines "do X to be saved" does not invalidate true doctrine "trust Jesus to be saved". The issue you accused me of is "ALMOST EVERYONE IS THEISTIC."
     
  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Having a "flood" believer could possibly talk
    about due diligence is one of those marvels of nature.
     
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  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I am certainly not a Christians, and have no interest in being one.
    So, I dont believe in "god" or "devil".
    BUT , if I did, seems to me I'd be wondering if our creationists
    and various other nominal Christians were not in fact
    minions of Satan.

    They do so much to discredit the faith, with their horrible
    examples of behaviour and thinking.
     
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  17. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    I remain correct, 1/3 of Earth is Christian, 1/3 of Earth is MUSLIM and believes Jesus is the sinless prophet who is Lord over Judgment Day and Muhammed himself. I remain correct that you are an iconoclast (99% of Earth believes in the numinous, 99% of that 1% of skeptics trolls on forums).

    Was this a question of yours? "So does the NT credibly record history?" Because the hundreds of words you wrote after sure look rhetorical to me (and incorrect).
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I thought that belief was a matter of the Holy Spirit and not a matter of evidence.
     
  19. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    So you understood my point. It was a fallacy.

    So the true Scotsman fallacy.
     
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  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    1/3 of the earth may regard Jesus as their savior (or they may never have thought much about it). As for prophets, they're meeting after work for a glass or two in the Dumbledore Room down the corridor.
    Do they look incorrect? Or do you only mean that you're not comfortable reading words that don't accord with what you want to believe? If the former, then set out your objections and the evidence you rely on, and we can discuss them. If the latter, well, that's a matter for you, though perhaps not the best way to enlarge your understanding.
     
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