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Featured Is this potential evidence for the resurrection of Christ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jos, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    Are axioms faith based assumptions?

    This is all very interesting but outside of Mark how is it possible for this entire story to be concocted without there being an actual Jesus on whom it's based?
     
  2. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I miswrote, it's more like they wrote under the person's name and made them say whatever it is they wanted them to say.

    Ok fair enough, I was just telling you how the other side might view things though.
     
  3. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I guess it's the only method one can really have in trying to attain truth.
     
  4. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    Nuts. It's called prophecy and Mark was written BEFORE 70 AD.

    "John Wenham, in his book, Redating Matthew, Mark and Luke, puts the Gospel of Mark at 45 AD."

    (Liberal) "John A. T. Robinson, put the Gospel of Mark also at 45 AD"

    "F. F. Bruce, puts the Gospel of Mark in AD 64"

    Early Dating for the Gospel according to Mark

    You shouldn't late date the Gospels based on your anti-supernatural bias - in this case kicking prophecy to the curb.
     
  5. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    What would an external source be? How would go about externally verifying something like that? Would it be externally verified if everyone had an experience with the risen Christ? Would that be enough external evidence?
     
  6. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    Look I don't know it for sure but that's what I've heard and again this goes to back my frustrations surrounding the facts of Jesus life, which is that everyone has their own set of facts which differs from other people's facts and it's all confusing and difficult to figure who has the correct details about his life.
     
  7. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    And now you've heard from ALL the early church fathers that the traditional Gospel authors wrote their Gospels. There's a ton of liberal Christ-deniers in these forums. They tend to base their late-dating of the Gospels to try to discredit the historical Jesus and because they tend to deny the supernatural - such as prophecy. The God of the Bible is supernatural. The liberals try to reduce him to be an impotent fairy tale. Don't trust the liberals and their revisionism of the Gospels and New Testament. I've got 40+ years of research on these issues and I'm giving it to you straight up.
     
  8. Spartan

    Spartan Well-Known Member

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    blu's theology is some of the worst stuff I've ever seen. You want the truth? Here's some recommended reading for you:

    "The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

    “The Historical Jesus of the Gospels,” by Dr. Craig Keener

    "The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and

    "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

    "New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former SKEPTIC Josh McDowell

    So do yourself a favor and read those. You'll have a good foundation of the historical facts once you do.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    An external source would be anything other than the NT.
    The resurrection was not externally verified, and it is too late to do that now.
    How do you think it would have been possible for everyone to have an experience with the risen Christ?
     
  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I wouldn't put it that way. The fact that we all share them suggests they're evolved aspects of human nature, indeed animal nature ─ even microorganisms respond appropriately to stimuli from external reality.
    There was, says Paul, a sect within Judaism featuring Jesus, and he'd persecuted them. If such a cult existed ─ and although we have no other record of them than from Paul, it seems reasonably likely ─ then it was apparently the source of some formal sayings or poems in Paul's letters (eg Romans 1:3-4, and the 'kenosis hymn', Philippians 2:5-11 ─ which rather weirdly says Jesus was not named Jesus until after his resurrection, and arguably raises a question, based on the scansion of the Greek, about whether he died by crucifixion or not). So it could have been the repository of stories and sayings about Jesus. Its existence wouldn't of itself affirm the existence of an historical Jesus because Paul himself, and the later authors, knew next to nothing of the earthly deeds of such a person. Hence the centrality of Mark to the whole issue.

    If there was an historical Jesus, and if shadows of an historical Jesus can be found in the gospels, then the part of Jesus' ministry that mattered happened over only a year or so, meaning that this sect would have been very young at the crucifixion, usually said to be 30 CE. It was vigorous enough to have had a Roman branch by the time Paul wrote Romans, perhaps 55-58 CE.

    (However, there's a possibility that it was older than that, going back to the last decades of the first century BCE, suggested by the Gabriel's Vision stone, which may refer to someone rising from the dead after three days, though there's no shortage of disputes. If it actually says that, it's another small straw on the scale for the no-historical Jesus argument.)
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Prophecy? No, there's not a single authenticated instance in the whole of history of supernatural foreknowledge. It's just a kind of magic ─ you'll recall the large role given to it in the Harry Potter books, By attributing prophecy to his hero, the author of Mark makes it clear he's writing after the event.
    What about dating Mark because it draws on a book that wasn't available till 75 CE?
     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Please feel free to say that to my face and to present a reasoned case on whatever you disagree with.
    I don't know Mr McDowell, but why would someone interested in the facts of history turn to an apologist like Habermas? The job of the apologist, as you know, is, like the defense attorney, to get his or her client, the denomination in question, off the hook; truth mustn't get in the way of the party line.
     
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I still seek harmony with you but I don't see you looking to further conversation.

    When atheists protest that the 12 teams of NT authors aren't enough to serve as contemporary records (within 70 years of the events or less) I remind them the early apocrypha also serve as a record, plus we have Roman and secular Jewish historians who write about the Christ, His followers and there beliefs. How did you not know all this and need sources and links? I've mentioned these before!
     
  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    To paraphrase The Last Jedi, everything you wrote is remarkably wrong...

    The problem is it seems closed-minded and deliberate on your part, for example, you seem wholly unaware of the secret kingdom of individuals who trusted Jesus for salvation but concealed their faith many times to avoid Roman or Jewish persecution or to follow the example of Jesus who told Pilate "not here for a military takeover but for a spiritual renewal".

    **Not least because there was no such thing as the NT before the Council of Rome in 380 CE.**

    Are you saying the NT documents were undistributed before then? That people didn't quote the NT documents or excerpt them as God's scripture before then? Of course not... you are simply using a term of convenience I work with "NT" and creating a straw man. What were the councils before 380 called for? To uphold, debate and discuss the teachings of WHAT TEXTS?
     
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I use LUKE to reference the 3rd book of the NT, you know, the way it's been done for millennia. I can, if you like, use 3rd4:16 to tell you Jesus loves you, but I think that's awkward!
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Within seventy years is not contemporaneous.. It is not even close. If half of the Jesus stories were true one would expect at least some contemporaneous mention of him.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Indeed I don't know the expression "secret kingdom" in this context. What, where, when, who, and (as ever, above all) evidence?
    Obviously not, since I was mentioning dates associated with various documents which made the cut at the Council of Rome. But as you know, the NT itself includes pseudepigraphs ─ only seven of the letters attributed to Paul pass muster, Peter didn't write Peter, and so on; we have no idea who actually wrote any of the rest. We have no copies of the original versions of any. And even now, what are apocrypha to one church are orthodoxy to another.
    All the texts, the ones that were what they appeared to be, and many others, because until 380 there was no canon (and with Eastern Orthodoxy, not till the 7th century).
     
  18. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    So we're back to "If God doesn't do what SZ expects," which subverts "God is a god of miracle surprises" as it is... sigh.

    The NT authors kept transmitting stories orally, building converts, and as mortality neared, got scribal help to transmit their stories for posterity. Does that help?

    Again (and again and again and again and again) I've also suggested that no one with living memory within the 70 years or FAR less for early NT docs wrote a counter claim of any kind. You've never once responded to that!

    Where is the rabbi or Roman who writes, "The hated Christians are now in the thousands, claiming the Jewish Law is unneeded due to their mythical figure. I lived in Jerusalem and Yeshua of Nazareth never traveled the length and breadth of Israel for years, healing thousands or rising from the dead!"
     
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  19. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Do you not see a disconnect between "All the NT is anonymous, which falsifies" and "Paul didn't even write the books attributed to him, so that falsifies . . ."?

    Guess what? The texts have endured beyond 380 as a third of Earth says Jesus is Lord, another third, Lord of Judgment Day over Muhammed. Because the texts are so good, verifiable, and authentic!

    I'm going back to Israel next month, praise Jesus, for days and days of exploring archaeological proof of the veracity of the holy scriptures.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Please, you can do better than this. Is this massive bit of dishonest mere deflection on your part? Let's drop the personal attacks and try to deal with the facts. We are not talking about what God should have done. We are talking about what was claimed by Christians. Try to learn the difference.

    And please, don't try to shift the burden of proof. Rebuttals of unknown loons do not tend to get published. There are far too many of them. Your act of clutching at straws only shows that you know how devastating it is that no one, besides those that drank the Koo-Aid, wrote of the magical feats of Jesus.
     
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