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Featured Is this potential evidence for the resurrection of Christ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Jos, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    I'm not really a believer but one question that's really intriguing and could potentially be evidence that Jesus rose from the dead is the fact that doubting Thomas was skeptical of the resurrection but upon touching Jesus' wounds he became a believer in the resurrection. Now assuming the story is true, unless someone can provide reason to doubt that Thomas existed or reason to doubt that he was skeptical of the resurrection even if he did exist, wouldn't the fact that Thomas was skeptical of the resurrection but then became a believer in the resurrection be potential evidence for the resurrection?
     
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  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Evidence provoded in the Bible isnt good evidence. If it were, then every religious text would have equally valid evidence to claim their supernatural occurances.
     
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  3. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    There are documented cases called "lazarus syndrome" where someone thought to be clinically dead, in cardiac arrest, recovered spontaneously. Since we've seen it happen to ordinary people, it's possible it happened to Jesus.

    Two examples from that wikipedia article:

    A 66-year-old man suffering from a suspected abdominal aneurysm suffered cardiac arrest and received chest compressions and defibrillation shocks for 17 minutes during treatment for his condition. Vital signs did not return; the patient was declared dead and resuscitation efforts ended. Ten minutes later, the surgeon felt a pulse. The aneurysm was successfully treated, and the patient fully recovered with no lasting physical or neurological problems.

    Velma Thomas, 59, of West Virginia, USA holds the record time for recovering from clinical death. In May 2008, Thomas went into cardiac arrest at her home. Medics were able to establish a faint pulse after eight minutes of CPR. Her heart stopped twice after arriving at the hospital and she was placed on life support. Doctors attempted to lower her body temperature to prevent additional brain injury. She was declared clinically dead for 17 hours after doctors failed to detect brain activity. Her son, Tim Thomas, stated that "her skin had already started hardening, her hands and toes were curling up, they were already drawn". She was taken off life support and funeral arrangements were in progress. However, ten minutes after being taken off life support, she revived and recovered
     
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  4. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    I would say you are a believer.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why would anyone assume the story is true? A story is not proof that a story is true.
     
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  6. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    A skeptical becoming convinced of something is not evidence for it being true. If tomorrow I'm suddenly convince that bigfoot exist, doesn't mean that it's evidence for its existence. Someone's belief has merit the truth. Same as if a believer suddenly become a nonbeliever. That person's nonbelief is not evidence against the resurrection.
     
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  7. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Why assume it is true? The sole source for the story is the NT (and only in the Gospel of John at that), which was written/complied/interpreted with the explicit purpose of establishing Jesus as the divine son of God. With no independent sources for the “doubting Thomas” story, I see no justification to assume it is true.

    A sceptical person being convinced isn’t evidence of truth in itself. The manner in which they’re convinced would be the significant element, since that would be the true basis of convincing others, but in this context, it still all boils down to what is claimed in the Bible alone.
     
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  8. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    And the stated purpose in John. 'so that you may have faith'. If the purpose was to provide evidence, proof, John could have added an 'appearance' to non believers.
     
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  9. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Resurrection isn't even rare in the Bible:
    1. Widow of Zarephath’s son

    2. Shunamite’s son
    2 Kings 4:20–37​

    3. Man tossed into Elisha’s tomb

    4. Widow of Nain’s son
    Luke 7:11–17​

    5. Jairus’ daughter
    Mark 5:35–43​

    6. Lazarus
    John 11:1–44​

    7. Tabitha (also known as Dorcas)
    Acts 9:36–41​

    8. Eutychus
    Acts 20:7–12​

    9. Those resurrected at Jesus’ crucifixion

    10. Moses
     
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  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Yes. As well as the many witnesses who saw him, as well a the witnesses who wrote about what they saw.

    They were so committed by what they saw, that they suffered constant persecution, and most died violently, in poverty.

    If they were pulling a scam, or perpetuating a lie, I can't imagine they would live and die like this knowing it wasn't true.
     
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  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Key word is assume.

    Is the flood story evidence for the flood?

    howabout...
    THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES


    Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

    Christian Whitmer

    Jacob Whitmer

    Peter Whitmer, Jun.

    John Whitmer

    Hiram Page

    Joseph Smith, Sen.

    Hyrum Smith

    Samuel H. Smith
     
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  12. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Since the custom was to leave people on the cross
    until they rotted off, that would be quite a laz trick.

    Also, as nails thru hands and feet as shown would
    not be nearly as solid as thru wrists and ankles
    ( the one known skeletal frag of a crucifiction has
    the naila thru ankle), IF someone were taken down
    alive, they would be in incredible pain, and, of course,
    crippled.
     
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  13. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Are there any witness statements recorded contemporary to the events or outside the Bible? If not, it all ultimately boils down to a single source with an obvious implicit bias.

    Were they though? I know that's a popular Christian belief but I'm not sure it's so definitive in most cases.

    Nobody has suggested a scam, at least not on the part of the apostles themselves. The question is whether the events depicted in the modern Bible are entirely true and accurate.

    In general terms, all sorts of people have held their faiths in the face of persecution, suffering and death. Some of them were even being persecuted by Christians. :cool:
     
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  14. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    The scam question should be directed to the Mormons.
     
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  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It seems to me you are saying that beliefs do not prove something is true.
    Conversely, non-beliefs do not prove something is false.
    Something is either true or false.
    I fully agree because that is logical.
     
  16. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    According to the wikipedia article those killed were not always left on the cross. The Bible narrative was that his body was requested of Pilate who agreed. So in his case the "leave until rotted" is not the narrative.

    This is not of course proven history, but the narrative is plausible by what we know sometimes happened back then.
     
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  17. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    But what if Thomas was a historical person and was skeptical until he had that encounter with Jesus? Wouldn't it be at least some evidence potentially for the resurrection?
     
  18. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    This is all very interesting but it doesn't make sense for that to have happened with Jesus since just about everyone believed that he was dead and there are sources that confirm that he died. If he did live on why aren't there accounts of him still walking and talking with people? One would think that such accounts would exist if he was still alive.
     
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  19. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    Trust me, I'm not.
     
  20. Jos

    Jos Well-Known Member

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    I know that but that's kinda my point, I'm wondering if it's just a story or an actual historical event... that's the big question.
     
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