Is this logical and acceptable ...... ?

[connermt]

It's possible that the sacrifice of Christ transcends the limitations of time and even those living before that event occurred in history were able to participate in it or benefit from it in some manner ?

Sure
It's also possible it's complete BS.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The god's messenger Jesus has sacrificed himself for , murderers , chiefs , and other criminals and felons don't go to hell ?

The sentence seems gramatically incorrect.

 

[Mehr Licht]

Sure
It's also possible it's complete BS.

If a person doesn't accept the idea of the sacrifice to begin with they would have little reason to worry about it's possible implications in that regard. For Christians though I think it might be a possibility worth investigating.

 

[waitasec]

If a person doesn't accept the idea of the sacrifice to begin with they would have little reason to worry about it's possible implications in that regard. For Christians though I think it might be a possibility worth investigating.

don't see why anyone would...imo,
it's an act of immorality to think one is able to trade in their culpability.

 

[Manss]

The sentence seems gramatically incorrect.

yes I have some problem in English yet . excuse me

 

[Mehr Licht]

it's an act of immorality to think one is able to trade in their culpability.

You lost me here. What do you mean by "trade in their culpability"?

 

[Mehr Licht]

Oh never mind I think I see what your getting at. I assumed you were talking about the universal presence of the sacrifce that I was positing but youre talking more about the idea of sacrafice for others in general? I'm not sure if it is "fair" or "just". It wasn't done out of fairness or because of justice. It was done out of goodness, mercy , and compassion that transcend "justice". I don't believe God is particualrly concerned with our notions of fairness.

Like Isaac the Syrian said:

“Be a herald of God’s goodness, for God rules over you, unworthy though you are; for although your debt to Him is so great, yet He is not seen exacting payment from you, and from the small works you do, He bestows great rewards upon you. Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright (cf. Ps. 24:8, 144:17), His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. ‘He is good,’ He says, ‘to the evil and to the impious’ (cf. Luke 6:35). How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? ‘Friend, I do thee no wrong: I will give unto this last even as unto thee. Is thine eye evil because I am good?’ (Matt. 20:12-15). How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? (Luke 15:11 ff.). None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it; and thus He bare witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice, for whilst we are sinners Christ died for us! (cf. Rom. 5:8). But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change.

​

 

[Mehr Licht]

I think of it like this. If you jumped in front of a moving train and someone else jumped in your place and pushed you away it wouldn't be particualry "fair" or "just" but you would have been saved from the result none the less. God loves us too much to care about our limited conceptions of "justice" in that regard. He acts in a way that draws our love and will toward him. It's my belief that eventually he will draw every person to himself in that manner.

 

[waitasec]

I think of it like this. If you jumped in front of a moving train and someone else jumped in your place and pushed you away it wouldn't be particualry "fair" or "just" but you would have been saved from the result none the less. God loves us too much to care about our limited conceptions of "justice" in that regard. He acts in a way that draws our love and will toward him. It's my belief that eventually he will draw every person to himself in that manner.

the thing is... being hit by a train is inevitable for everyone... metaphorically speaking of course... no one can jump in my place

and

no one is purosefully jumping in front of a train either... metaphorically speaking of course

 

[Nakosis]

Oh never mind I think I see what your getting at. I assumed you were talking about the universal presence of the sacrifce that I was positing but youre talking more about the idea of sacrafice for others in general? I'm not sure if it is "fair" or "just". It wasn't done out of fairness or because of justice. It was done out of goodness, mercy , and compassion that transcend "justice". I don't believe God is particualrly concerned with our notions of fairness.

Like Isaac the Syrian said:

“Be a herald of God’s goodness, for God rules over you, unworthy though you are; for although your debt to Him is so great, yet He is not seen exacting payment from you, and from the small works you do, He bestows great rewards upon you. Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright (cf. Ps. 24:8, 144:17), His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. ‘He is good,’ He says, ‘to the evil and to the impious’ (cf. Luke 6:35). How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? ‘Friend, I do thee no wrong: I will give unto this last even as unto thee. Is thine eye evil because I am good?’ (Matt. 20:12-15). How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? (Luke 15:11 ff.). None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it; and thus He bare witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice, for whilst we are sinners Christ died for us! (cf. Rom. 5:8). But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change.

​

In the gnostic Christian view, Judas did not betray Jesus. He helped to release Jesus from his flesh and return him to the spiritual realm. Jesus' work was done, his message delivered.

Some see this world/existence as Hell. A world full of lies, pain, suffering. Heaven is the spiritual world, hell is this world. The Creator of this existence, the Demiurge enticed man to kill Jesus because Jesus was a threat to what he created. If one's spirit escapes this existence they are no longer subject to the Demiurge. However it was also Jesus' desire to leave as he had delivered his message of Heaven.

However the Demiurge caused man to see his death as a payment to him for sin. This does not actually release man from sin. Doesn't release him from his attachment to flesh. So man remains trapped here by his fear and desire for sin.

For a gnostic there is no payment for sin required. One must simply conquer sin by overcoming their fears and desires.

You see how insidious this concept of sacrifice is... It makes man think sin is something someone else can pay for. And, promotes the idea that man cannot overcome sin. Keeps people thinking they are unworthy. Since they are unable and unworthy it allows then to justify their continuing fear and desire.

 

[sojourner]

Not exactly.
In order for these people to have a chance to get into heaven, he had to be sacrificed.
They could repent and turn away all they want, but if it wasn't for the sacrifice, the repenting and turning would be null

Jesus asked people to repent before he was sacrificed. Were those occasions null?

 

[sojourner]

To assuage their sense of insecurity and make themselves feel better, the Bedu and townsmen used to symbolically invest an animal with all their sins, then drive it off or kill it, cleansing and renewing the tribe.
Christ's sacrifice is just an extension of this ancient practice.

I don't think so.

 

[sojourner]

Right. But even if they did that, it wouldn't matter if there was no sacrifice.

Isn't repentance, itself, a sacrifice?

 

[sojourner]

Did you mean thiefs? The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus came to give his life as a ransom. "the Son of man came..to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many." (Matthew 20:28)
All mankind was sold into sin and death by Adam. God sent his Son to provide the legal means to release us from sin and death. (Romans 6:23) The Bible teaches that on the basis of that sacrifice, God can extend mercy to those who accept Christ's sacrifice. (John 3:16) Of course, once a person becomes a Christian, they must no longer practice such things as murder, theft, or other badness. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

the ransom came most especially be God giving up Divinity to become human.

 

[Mehr Licht]

In the gnostic Christian view, Judas did not betray Jesus. He helped to release Jesus from his flesh and return him to the spiritual realm. Jesus' work was done, his message delivered.

Technically I think that would be a gnostic view (Sethian maybe) rather than the gnostic view. Whatever group made use of the Gospel of Judas may have thought in that manner. I've seen no evidence that the orthodox Christian gnostics like Origen or Clement of Alexandria or even the Valentinians viewed Judas in that light.

Some see this world/existence as Hell. A world full of lies, pain, suffering. Heaven is the spiritual world, hell is this world. The Creator of this existence, the Demiurge enticed man to kill Jesus because Jesus was a threat to what he created. If one's spirit escapes this existence they are no longer subject to the Demiurge.

I would say that hell is often manifested in this world. Every now and then heaven is as well. This cosmos is the world of mixture were a battle between the light and dark world takes place. It's central Like the midgard or middle realm of the Norse. There are both higher and lower worlds. Unfortunately I believe there is a world even darker than this one. Most every religion recognizes the existence of even more infernal abodes like the cold and hot hells of Buddhism or the Tartarus of the Orphic Greeks for example. Even though the Orphics taught, much like some of the later gnostics, that this world itself is a realm of punishment and exile they still recognized even lower states of being.

However it was also Jesus' desire to leave as he had delivered his message of Heaven.

While his message is important I believe it's the incarnation that makes deification possible. God became man so that man could become god as Saint Athanasius wrote. God taking on humanity makes it possible for man to take on divinity. It made the alchemical process of salvation,turning wrath into love (see the writings of Jacob Boehme), or stone into gold, possible.

For a gnostic there is no payment for sin required. One must simply conquer sin by overcoming their fears and desires.

I don't feel that Christs death was a payment to the Father. I think the payment metaphor is often misunderstood in that direction.

You see how insidious this concept of sacrifice is... It makes man think sin is something someone else can pay for

The kingdom of God is within. "Christ in us", the indwelling Logos, can rescue a person from sin through grace. God is powerful enough to do that. He can also save us from ignorance and fear. This happens by grace when we sink our will down into him. In so far as one becomes a partaker of the divine nature [2 Peter 1:4] they have transcended fear, ignorance, and sin. God lives in them. God does this without coercion though. Satan rules through force and coercion while God woos our will toward him by love.

And, promotes the idea that man cannot overcome sin. Keeps people thinking they are unworthy. Since they are unable and unworthy it allows then to justify their continuing fear and desire.

Without God we can do nothing [John 15:5]. With God we can.

 

[viole]

The god's messenger Jesus has sacrificed himself for , murderers , chiefs , and other criminals and felons don't go to hell ?

The premise is wrong.

Jesus did not sacrifice anything. Including Himself.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Manss]

Hi all, excuse me
first of all, I have to explain, I left religiousForums for a long time. One of the reasons was that the previous administrator ( he/she is respectful for me yet) sent me a feedback. At the time I didn't know what was feedback and I thought it was a penalty so I didn't write anything in respond and left the forum! It is necessary that I explain, when I created this thread my English was very low and broken and I didn't know a lot of the words that I am working with now. So I used " chiefs " instead of "thiefs" ( of course thieves ) it was funny?! No? hahahaha
Also I excuse you that I couldn't respond some of your posts. so let me I study some of them and if it was necessary I would reply

Thank you

 

[Manss]

The premise is wrong.

Jesus did not sacrifice anything. Including Himself.

Ciao

- viole

As I have heard some churches said to people that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sin that people do, so that they don't go to hell due to their guilt.

 

[viole]

As I have heard some churches said to people that Jesus sacrificed himself for the sin that people do, so that they don't go to hell due to their guilt.

Yes, but according to the same people Jesus is stll around. Actually, He was already around after a couple of days. I personally would have no problem to achieve any goal if that costs me only a dreamless sleep for two days. Especially if I have the guarantee to come back to rule the Universe.

So, what is the big deal?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Nakosis]

Not exactly.
In order for these people to have a chance to get into heaven, he had to be sacrificed.
They could repent and turn away all they want, but if it wasn't for the sacrifice, the repenting and turning would be null

Yes, how did they come up with that theology. I kind of suspect Paul when he was Saul did some real evil. Stuff he could never account for, never reconcile. So he instead assumed Jesus paid his account once he realized how evil he had been.

I think Jesus just refused to allow sin to have any power over him. Even to the crucifix. This was an example of what sacrifice of what may be necessary for each individual to make.

Not willing to make the necessary sacrifice, people try to put it all on the shoulders of Jesus. 2000 years, this thinking hasn't gotten them anywhere.