is the qu'ran the infallable word of god

[TashaN]

Well said bro!:yes:

Mashallah, By Allah those who have knowledge it is clear those who lack the true guidance of the Quran which dictates to us to follow the Messenger is very evident. Again Alhumdulilah Truth for your post.

Good stuff truth. Mashallah you have a very strong grasp of Islam. I just want to point out that the point you made with praying five times a day was perfect, and really helped sum everything up.

Salam ou Alikum Brother.

Ezzedean

Thank you guys

I thank Allah who inspired me to remember that hadith which talks about those who reject islam and it's details and to just take the Quran as a religion instead of Islam.

That "Sahih" hadith is not just to prove our need for hadith but as reply to those who are rejecting the example and orders of prophet Mohammed. Subhan Allah, God inspired prophet Mohammed that a day will come when people reject his teaching which was INSPIRED BY GOD but not the actual word of God as the illusion and delusion of some people will drive them astray from the real teaching of islam. That will happen when they adopt their culture and what their people used to do or *believe* in instead of following the judging of Allah, the culture which they adopt and claim in other places that they dislike it's influnce in the religion.

Using the hadiths to justify the hadiths is no justification to me. It's like saying I'm the President of the Unites States because I said I'm President of the United States.

No, i wasn't proving the hadith to you but i was telling the other muslims who believe in the hadith that prophet Mohammed warned us about those who will reject his teaching.

The hadiths contradict the Quran on so many levels and often they just carry a completely different tone. The Quran empowers and respects women, for example, but Bukhari turns us into... demons, really.

This statment clearly show that you have no idea of what you are talking about because the Bukhari didn't invent a thing from his mind but he was just following the chain of narrator and he was recording that and later on i may post the complicated job the scholars adopted to make sure which hadith is correct 100% and which one isn't. Their standard is even more accurate than what people in other religions used to do in order to save the word of God which was inspired to their prophets, how about the word of their prophets !!! That's why some may envey Muslims in the way they protected the teaching of our beloved prophet, Mohammed "peace be upon him".

There is no doubt in my mind that Muslims everywhere will someday stop abusing the Quran, and setting up idols with God.

Now you call muslims idol worshippers because they followed what God himself ordered them to do so?

[80] He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah; but if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds). (Surah 4:80)

[65] But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (Surah 4:65)

 

[Djamila]

Your arguement still makes no sense to me, The Truth. God sanctioned only the Koran, not the hadiths. Just because the hadiths say they are from God, doesn't mean they are. If they truly were, they would have been revealed in the Koran - or at the very least, not foretold and us advised to beware them.

And as for Bukhari continueing the chain? Have you ever done that experiment in school where the students form a line, the teacher whispers something in one students ear - say "the grass is purple" - and by the time each student passes it to the other, it emerges at the end of the line as something completely different - "the Horse ate a monkey", say.

Imagine that, multiplied over two centuries. And that's Bukhari.

And even if Bukhari somehow managed to be transmitted word for word, it contradicts the Koran. And God warned against believing in such lies.

 

[TashaN]

You all look at me and imagine I am a modern, Western woman simply trying to justify my way of life.

Just two questions will finish this up. Please answer it and stop avoiding it.

Do you pray? If you do so ..

How many times? and why?

Thank you.

 

[TashaN]

Sister, the first link you provided, distorts the translation of the Quran. As highlighted by brother TT & questioned by me in my earlier post.
When confronted, you could not provide a translator, nor can this website, do you know why?

Because it's a distorted translation! The author of the article has taken it upon themselves to be translators, they haven't provided the source of the translation.
This meaning that these website mystery translators, have taken it upon themselves to be above all learned men proficient in arabic & other languages!

If you're disregarding Bukhari & other learned men of Islam on the grounds that their findings are man made, not from God, susceptible to human error.
Couldn't you apply this same logic on yourself, or this article & website, man made - not from God & susceptible very large margins of error?

And chronologically, wouldn't you think these scholars you condemn are closer to the source, even if it was 200 years after Muhammad(pbuh),
compared to say 1400 years after and based on our FREE MINDS & mistranslations ??

Are they following what the Qur'an says? If so, which translation (translator) ?
Anyhow, I know these are difficult questions for you, so I don't expect an answer.
Atleast I understand now that this translation was not yours sister, it was from this website. If it's reform that Free-Minds organisation is seeking, then it's not Islam that they must reform. It's vice-versa, Islam is here to reform US! To liberate us from ourselves, to enable us to have true/free minds!

If you are striving to be a complete muslim, and only want whats authentic, then I think all muslims share your fervour. If authenticity is so important to you then so should translations that stay within context. It's even more important that we ourselves stay authentic & true to ourselves, and understand the real realities rather than misconceptions, misinformation, in order to justify our liberalisms.

I hope Insh'Allah you do not find my words & arguments disrespectful in anyway.
I look forward for your response sister.

Well said my brother.

 

[Djamila]

To prepare for prayers:

"O you who believe, if you rise to perform the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative." (5:6)

"O you who believe, do not approach the Salat while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless travelling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving." (4:43)

The way to face when you pray:

"We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: 'You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.' Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do." (2:144)

What we say when we pray is the first chapter of the Koran, the oath of God. It's also very important to speak modestly. The Koran says to pray loud enough to be heard, but not too loud. We also must use the Koran for prayers:

"You shall perform the Salat at the setting of the sun till the twilight; and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn is witnessed." (17:78)

There are three daily prayers required by the Koran:

Dawn Salat (24:58, 11:114):

O you who believe, let those who are your dependants and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times: Before the dawn salat, and should you put off your attire from being outdoors, and after the evening salat. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

And you shall perform the oath of allegiance at the two edges of the day, and at the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

The Middle Salat (2:238):

Maintain the salat, and especially the middle salat; and stand devoutly for God.

And the Night Salat (same verses as the morning salat)

Personally, I pray five times a day - it's cultural, and it doesn't contradict the Koran in any way, shape or form. More modest praise, more faith, a deeper connection with God, and all of these benefits of prayers are a gift. I don't always make it to mosque, though. I'll stop, wherever I am, and pray standing - as the Koran allows us to do in many situations. Now I'm sure "busy at work", or "15 minutes drive from mosque, I can't make it" aren't good excuses, but I believe in God and I pray and I have no fear.

I always make it to mosque for evening prayers, and I always make it for morning prayers. For me, the most important prayer is the sunset prayer. It's also the most spiritual for me because it's generally the emptiest at mosque. It just feels so strong, it's almost enough to make you cry.

And remember:

"And Say: "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly." (17:111)

Prayer is, of course, VERY important:

"And the believing men and women, they are allies to one another. They order good and deter from evil, and they honour the Salat, and they contribute towards betterment, and they obey God and His messenger. God will have mercy on them; God is Noble, Wise." (9:71)

 

[TashaN]

You don't have to fill up your post, i just wanted straight forward answers. i'm a muslim and i know these verses but i just wanted to know how many times do you pray and why, that's all.

Personally, I pray five times a day - it's cultural, and it doesn't contradict the Koran in any way, shape or form.

So you mean, to pray 5 times a day is a cultural thing which anyone can add or take from?

Do you really ask the Imam about these stuff or it's your own veiw that praying 5 times is just a cultural thing?

That means, the way you are saying it, a muslim can pray 10 times maybe and he/she can invent names for these extra cultural way praying? or maybe they can make it less, maybe once or twice a day. It's just a cultural thing according to you and we can change a bit as we like is it?

So interesting, finally, all Muslims around the world agrees to have one cultural thing which is to pray 5 times a day and also in a specific time as well.

To pray 5 times a day is a cultural thing, i'm shocked. Sorry, i can't comment enough in that because i didn't imagine that one day, i'll hear such a thing from a muslim. I don't know what to say, I'm so shocked. Maybe other muslims can come in here to say if they have such a culture the same as you (God forbid).

 

[Ezzedean]

The Prophet prayed five times a day djamila. I honestly see both sides of the argument but in all honesty jamila, Hadith is a part of Islam. I've stated in many of my posts that I sway away from most Hadith due to my lack of understanding. Now, before I stir up the pot allow me to explain. My brother reads hadith and my father has read a lot of it also. From my understanding there is a lot of hadith which we should stay away from, due to the fact that they were written with an agenda... that agenda was mostly politically based.. BUT.. and there is a big but. I have just recently started reading hadith narrated by Bukhari, and I have to say... this is a part of Islam. Like the truth has stated, we wouldn't have known to pray five times a day if it wasn't for the Hadith. We as muslims would not know what was approved by Muhammed if it wasn't for Hadith. What is so important to understand is that Muhammed was the PRIME example of what and who a muslim is to be. He is our example, for both men and women. Now djamila.. allow me to show you a verse from the Holy Quran.

God says;

"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. " [Qur'an 59:7]

May I ask you something djamila? How would we know what the Prophet has given us, and what he forbids us if it wasn't for Hadith? I know God has set out what is forbidden in the Quran, but he also makes it clear that the way of life which Muhammed lived, and what he swayed away from.. we too should sway away from... and Alhumduileh we are able to learn about his life through Hadith.

I have been practicing Islam for years now without Hadith, only reading the Quran... but now that I've started reading Hadith it has helped me a lot. I can't see how the authentic hadith I've read so far isn't accepted by Allah... it doesn't contradict with His teachings, it elaborates on them. Hadith puts the teachings of the Quran into play. You are reading about a person who lived his life based on the guidance of Quran, how can you not learn from such a thing?

Please djamila know that I'm not upset with you or attacking you in any way... I'm just trying to understand... although at times I think I do, I will then begin to realize other aspects of Hadith and then longer understand. I used to stay away from Hadith just like you, but it was only because I knew nothing about it. I don't recite Hadith when I pray, I dont recite hadith when I discuss the Word of God, but I still do LEARN from hadith. I don't place it on a higher level than the Quran, and I don't believe it to be the WORD of God, but it is still a part of Islam. Do you go to Friday prayer? Do you listen to the Imams speech? Or do you not trust him either? In no way am I calling you any less of a muslim.. you clearly love Allah and submit to Him, and I'm sure you follow the five pillars, and you'll always be my sister... but I disagree with you on the issue of Hadith.


Peace and Blessings

Ezzedean Fadel

 

[TashaN]

The Prophet prayed five times a day djamila. I honestly see both sides of the argument but in all honesty jamila, Hadith is a part of Islam. I've stated in many of my posts that I sway away from most Hadith due to my lack of understanding. Now, before I stir up the pot allow me to explain. My brother reads hadith and my father has read a lot of it also. From my understanding there is a lot of hadith which we should stay away from, due to the fact that they were written with an agenda... that agenda was mostly politically based.. BUT.. and there is a big but. I have just recently started reading hadith narrated by Bukhari, and I have to say... this is a part of Islam. Like the truth has stated, we wouldn't have known to pray five times a day if it wasn't for the Hadith. We as muslims would not know what was approved by Muhammed if it wasn't for Hadith. What is so important to understand is that Muhammed was the PRIME example of what and who a muslim is to be. He is our example, for both men and women. Now djamila.. allow me to show you a verse from the Holy Quran.

God says;

"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. " [Qur'an 59:7]

May I ask you something djamila? How would we know what the Prophet has given us, and what he forbids us if it wasn't for Hadith? I know God has set out what is forbidden in the Quran, but he also makes it clear that the way of life which Muhammed lived, and what he swayed away from.. we too should sway away from... and Alhumduileh we are able to learn about his life through Hadith.

I have been practicing Islam for years now without Hadith, only reading the Quran... but now that I've started reading Hadith it has helped me a lot. I can't see how the authentic hadith I've read so far isn't accepted by Allah... it doesn't contradict with His teachings, it elaborates on them. Hadith puts the teachings of the Quran into play. You are reading about a person who lived his life based on the guidance of Quran, how can you not learn from such a thing?

Please djamila know that I'm not upset with you or attacking you in any way... I'm just trying to understand... although at times I think I do, I will then begin to realize other aspects of Hadith and then longer understand. I used to stay away from Hadith just like you, but it was only because I knew nothing about it. I don't recite Hadith when I pray, I dont recite hadith when I discuss the Word of God, but I still do LEARN from hadith. I don't place it on a higher level than the Quran, and I don't believe it to be the WORD of God, but it is still a part of Islam. Do you go to Friday prayer? Do you listen to the Imams speech? Or do you not trust him either? In no way am I calling you any less of a muslim.. you clearly love Allah and submit to Him, and I'm sure you follow the five pillars, and you'll always be my sister... but I disagree with you on the issue of Hadith.


Peace and Blessings

Ezzedean Fadel

You are indeed right my brother. We will never understand somthing until we experince it. Islam always encourage us to think and reason together but not to accept anything blindly. But when we see the signs of Allah in front of us so God will blame us for that if we didn't follow it.

Maybe i was frustrated a little bit but believe me, i see you as a sister of mine in islam and i have no reason to offend you. I just can't close my eyes when i see somthing which i have to say a thing about it. This is how our Ummah must be.

God said in the Quran ...

[103] And hold fast, all together, by the Rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the Pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: that ye may be guided.

[104] Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: they are the ones to attain felicity.

[105] Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs: for them is a dreadful Penalty.


[106] On the Day when some faces will be (lit up with) white, and some faces will be (in the gloom of) black: to those whose faces will be black, (will be said): "Did ye reject Faith after accepting it? Taste then the Penalty for rejecting Faith."


[107] But those whose faces will be (lit with) white, they will be in (the Light of) Allah's mercy; therein to dwell (forever).

[108] These are the Signs of Allah: We rehearse them to thee in Truth; and Allah means no injustice to any of His creatures.


[109] To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth; to Him do all questions go back (for decision).


[110] Ye are the best of Peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had Faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have Faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (Quran 3:103-110)

God said that we are the best of people, evolved for mankind, but in what condition?

If we ...

1- enjoining what is right,
2- forbidding what is wrong,
3- and believing in Allah.

I put myself in your shoes and i understand where you are coming from, but by God, i just meant to say what i believe to be right through the evidences i have at hand. So, i apologize if i offended you in anything and i hope all the best for you in your searching for what is right "God willing".


Peace and blessing,

The Truth

 

[James the Persian]

Forgive me if this has already come up, but this is a really long thread. If my question has already been answered here, could you please point me to the relevant posts?

I'd like to ask about the idea of abrogation. As far as I'm aware, this perfectly normal Muslim belief and not something unusual and yet I can't see how you can hold to this whilst simultaneously believing that the Quran is the eternal and inerrant word of God. How could corrections (which seems to be what abrogation is about) be required if this is the case? Maybe if a Muslim who understands the issue could educate me, it might make sense (I'm not saying that I would agree, though) but at the moment, the two beliefs seem to directly contradict one another.

I assure you that this is an honest question and that I am genuinely interested in the answer.

James

 

[TashaN]

Forgive me if this has already come up, but this is a really long thread. If my question has already been answered here, could you please point me to the relevant posts?

I'd like to ask about the idea of abrogation.

Post # 215.

 

[universal_brother]

Forgive me if this has already come up, but this is a really long thread. If my question has already been answered here, could you please point me to the relevant posts?

I'd like to ask about the idea of abrogation. As far as I'm aware, this perfectly normal Muslim belief and not something unusual and yet I can't see how you can hold to this whilst simultaneously believing that the Quran is the eternal and inerrant word of God. How could corrections (which seems to be what abrogation is about) be required if this is the case? Maybe if a Muslim who understands the issue could educate me, it might make sense (I'm not saying that I would agree, though) but at the moment, the two beliefs seem to directly contradict one another.

I assure you that this is an honest question and that I am genuinely interested in the answer.

James

& Post 228

If you still dont understand brother, come back to us.

 

[James the Persian]

& Post 228

If you still dont understand brother, come back to us.

So, judging from that post, there is a controversy regarding abrogation that I was not aware of? Your position also, appears to be that abrogation is an erroneous doctrine. Is that true? If so, I can respect that position as it would certainly clear up the issue I have with the idea, but i was certainly under the impression that abrogation was generally accepted. Do you have any idea which view is the more commonly held one? It would be interesting to find out.

I also read the links submitted by the Truth on this subject, and he seems to take the opposing view to you, but I can't say that they did anything to clear up the apparent logical contradiction. I still cannot understand how an eternal and infallible text can be progressively revealed in such a way that later revelations overrule the earlier. Apparently that is equally contradictory in your eyes as it is in mine.

James

 

[universal_brother]

Their translation is literal, and as far as I know they do it themselves. But I'm not stupid enough to put all my faith in a website, I put all my faith in the Koran.

Translation themselves? Surely you know literal translations of a word carries many meanings in any language, especially Arabic. Just open an oxford dictionary! These words can only be understood in a whole context, therefore translated as such. However, you have said you don't put your trust in that website, but you still quote from it!
This is proof that your analysis is confused & contradictory!
Weak (unauthentic)translations can only give you weak understandings sister.
What type of faith this will give you, I will let you conclude.

Question: Do you agree with their translation on this website or not?

I have two English translations of the Koran, one that is just a normal translation, the basic English Koran.

I have another that is a literal translation and offers all the possible meanings of every Arabic word. You'd never be able to read it in terms of meditation or prayer, or to appreciate the beauty of the Koran, but it's a good reference.

It's written like:

And God said [implied, told, showed, peanut] that [if, of or] Muhammed came [went, appeared in, showed up at it] the door [passage, opening, entrance].

That's just a made-up example, but that's how the Koran looks.

The 2 English Qur'ans you have, could you give me the name of the translator please?
Once you have provided names of translators, could you then copy & paste another example from your reference Qur'an as a clearer example, please!

And then I have the normal Bosnian Koran, which is - since I've read other Korans - obscenely different. It's just very, very different.

No comment.

 

[TashaN]

So, judging from that post, there is a controversy regarding abrogation that I was not aware of? Your position also, appears to be that abrogation is an erroneous doctrine. Is that true? If so, I can respect that position as it would certainly clear up the issue I have with the idea, but i was certainly under the impression that abrogation was generally accepted. Do you have any idea which view is the more commonly held one? It would be interesting to find out.

I also read the links submitted by the Truth on this subject, and he seems to take the opposing view to you, but I can't say that they did anything to clear up the apparent logical contradiction. I still cannot understand how an eternal and infallible text can be progressively revealed in such a way that later revelations overrule the earlier. Apparently that is equally contradictory in your eyes as it is in mine.

James

It seems that we directed you into details before you grasp the main idea.

First of all you have to know that abrogation happened during the revelation period which is almost 23 years, it was done only by God because at that time, islam was just began to spread, and God was making a rule while Muslims are in a specific condition then when they improve and have more faith for instance, he was replacing the verse with another or even deleting it, but this only happaned 5 times only in the Quran almost if i'm not mistaken.

This is an important part of the general message of Islam especially the aspect related to making prohibitions and having people go through major changes of life style. Knowledge of the chronology of how these aspects were made in the early period of Islam leads one to appreciate the wisdom behind the gradual process of legislation. A good example of this is the prohibition of inebriants. First, people were told they are bad but may have some benefit,
"They ask you about wine and gambling. Say in them is great sin, and yet some benefit to people" [2:219]

Then they were told not to drink before salah,
"O you who believed do not approach salah while you are intoxicated." [4:42]

And later inebriants were prohibited altogether,
"O you who believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling... are defilement from the work of Satan." [5:90]

In this example we notice the way the legislation considered the fact that drinking was a major solid part of the Arabs' social life. But the gradual approach used in indicating its harms and making it prohibited on them made it easy for them to accept, a realistic approach which we can all learn from.

 

[Djamila]

The Prophet prayed five times a day djamila. I honestly see both sides of the argument but in all honesty jamila, Hadith is a part of Islam. I've stated in many of my posts that I sway away from most Hadith due to my lack of understanding. Now, before I stir up the pot allow me to explain. My brother reads hadith and my father has read a lot of it also. From my understanding there is a lot of hadith which we should stay away from, due to the fact that they were written with an agenda... that agenda was mostly politically based.. BUT.. and there is a big but. I have just recently started reading hadith narrated by Bukhari, and I have to say... this is a part of Islam. Like the truth has stated, we wouldn't have known to pray five times a day if it wasn't for the Hadith. We as muslims would not know what was approved by Muhammed if it wasn't for Hadith. What is so important to understand is that Muhammed was the PRIME example of what and who a muslim is to be. He is our example, for both men and women. Now djamila.. allow me to show you a verse from the Holy Quran.

God says;

"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. " [Qur'an 59:7]

May I ask you something djamila? How would we know what the Prophet has given us, and what he forbids us if it wasn't for Hadith? I know God has set out what is forbidden in the Quran, but he also makes it clear that the way of life which Muhammed lived, and what he swayed away from.. we too should sway away from... and Alhumduileh we are able to learn about his life through Hadith.

I have been practicing Islam for years now without Hadith, only reading the Quran... but now that I've started reading Hadith it has helped me a lot. I can't see how the authentic hadith I've read so far isn't accepted by Allah... it doesn't contradict with His teachings, it elaborates on them. Hadith puts the teachings of the Quran into play. You are reading about a person who lived his life based on the guidance of Quran, how can you not learn from such a thing?

Please djamila know that I'm not upset with you or attacking you in any way... I'm just trying to understand... although at times I think I do, I will then begin to realize other aspects of Hadith and then longer understand. I used to stay away from Hadith just like you, but it was only because I knew nothing about it. I don't recite Hadith when I pray, I dont recite hadith when I discuss the Word of God, but I still do LEARN from hadith. I don't place it on a higher level than the Quran, and I don't believe it to be the WORD of God, but it is still a part of Islam. Do you go to Friday prayer? Do you listen to the Imams speech? Or do you not trust him either? In no way am I calling you any less of a muslim.. you clearly love Allah and submit to Him, and I'm sure you follow the five pillars, and you'll always be my sister... but I disagree with you on the issue of Hadith.


Peace and Blessings

Ezzedean Fadel

I've already answered these questions in previous posts?

You're all just spinning me in circles.

Fine, worship Muhammed, worship Bukhari - it doesn't bother me. Adios.

 

[universal_brother]

So, judging from that post, there is a controversy regarding abrogation that I was not aware of?

Yes, there is if you read orientalist and anti-Islamic propaganda.
There isn't if you understand the TRUE understanding of Abrogate in Islam.

Your position also, appears to be that abrogation is an erroneous doctrine. Is that true? If so, I can respect that position as it would certainly clear up the issue I have with the idea, but i was certainly under the impression that abrogation was generally accepted.

I'll try a simplified approach, to minimise your confusion.
Abrogation is only erroneous as it has a broad meaning.
Abrogation is accepted in Islam, where Allah(swt) can change Qur'anic scripture as it was being revealed. Laws that muslims were following up to that point would be abrogated. Also Allah(swt) mentions that previous scriptures (before the Quran) were abrogated. Abrogation was also used by scholars to determine authentic hadiths from unauthentic hadiths.

Where abrogation became controversial was, when these early scholars with a weak understanding of the limits of Abrogation, made suggestions to change the Qur'an as they did not fit the understanding of the (now unauthentic) hadiths, and what they thought were contradictions within the Qur'an. Abrogating any verses of the Quran is offlimits for the whole of creation, it can only be done by it's Author, God Almighty!

Do you have any idea which view is the more commonly held one? It would be interesting to find out.

...er....2 views...I've come across. One held by the muslims, and another held by orientalists!

I also read the links submitted by the Truth on this subject, and he seems to take the opposing view to you,

Opposing? Enlighten me. I suggest you read both posts, read the links one more time.

but I can't say that they did anything to clear up the apparent logical contradiction. I still cannot understand how an eternal and infallible text can be progressively revealed in such a way that later revelations overrule the earlier. Apparently that is equally contradictory in your eyes as it is in mine.

Logical contradiction? You mean it didn't clear up your apparent logical understanding of the subject. I think the previous posts have cleared up this if you read carefully!

Many Muslims and non-Muslims misunderstand the second interpretation to mean that some of the earlier verses of the Qur’an were abrogated and no longer hold true for us today, as they have been replaced by the later verses of the Qur’an or the abrogating verses. This group of people even wrongly believe that these verses contradict each other.

TT post 215 (second link)!! Opposing hey???

 

[TashaN]

I forgot to post the Hadith which states that we supposed to pray five times a day.

Here is one of the hadiths which talks about the five prayers.

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If there was a river at the door of anyone of you and he took a bath in it five times a day would you notice any dirt on him?" They said, "Not a trace of dirt would be left." The Prophet added, "That is the example of the five prayers with which Allah blots out (annuls) evil deeds." (Book #10, Hadith #506)

 

[Genna]

This thread is gargantuan and I ask previously if Muhammad was sinless and a muslim replied yes. How would you explain this:

This is a hadith from Bukhari.

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying." By Allah! I ask for forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance more than seventy times a day."

How would you explain this?

 

[Ezzedean]

Sorry djamila... but this needs to be done.

I went back and read every post you made in this thread... to see if you did answer my questions. If you want the simple reaction... that would be.. No, you did not answer my questions in any previous thread. I'm sure that's not gonna be enough for you to understand why I don't belive you answered my question. So allow me to prove my point.
Your first post pointed out that you did not accept hadiths. Therfore you do not accept the way we pray, you do not accept praying five times a day. In your second post you tried to explain that the Quran was complete. You also stated that we believe The Hadith to be the word of God... which is a blatant lie. I'm sure you know this because of your vast knowledge of the Quran... but Allah makes mention to the Torah and Injeel and explains that it was inspired by Him, but it is not His complete, infallable word, but there is some truth in those books. We need to sway away from what contradicts with the Quran... hadith does not do such a thing.
After only posting twice you were already tired of having this discussion... which was very odd to me considering you only had two very short posts with very little information explaining your view. So why were you beginning to get annoyed? I find that people get annoyed and frustrated with arguments they know they can't win. Anyway.. in this third post of yours you quoted 6:114-116 aswell as 45:6. Neither of these verses answer my questions. These verses talked about the completeness of the Quran and those who follow doubt and conjecture. Allah has made it clear in many verses of the Quran that the Chrsitians follow doubts and conjecture with books which have been added to and taken away from. Allah is explaining that no man can take away from the Quran nor add to it... how has hadith done this in any way? Also when you quoted 45:6... The Truth explained to you all the meanings of the word Hadith, and you never went back to that topic again.
You were asked these questions;
How do you make salaat?
How do you fast and how do you know what breaks a fast?
How do you know what breakes wudu?
How do you know what to say in salaat?
Why do you believe in the Quran since it was in fact transmitted through the prophet? Why is the Quran more believable than the hadiths that also were transmitted through the prophet?

You didn't even answer one of those questions jamila. You repeated your statement of the Quran being complete... no one has come close to saying that the Quran wasn't complete, but yet you seem to think that's what we're saying. The Quran is the way of life, it tells you what you need to do to be a muslim... you need to pray, you need to fast, you need to believe in one God etc etc... Hadith shows you how to live that guidline.

In your next post you accused The Truth of trying to be your God, and you also told him that what he was saying was the stupidest thing you've ever heard. What was so stupid about him explaining that if your gonna recite the Quran in English, to recite the whole verse in English and not parts of it in Arabic and parts of it in English?
You were asked to give simple yes or no answers and you refused to do so for some reason. Your exact words were "You said that statement needs to be put into context, I said it didn't".. The truth replied to that statement by with the whole "So woe to worshippers" (Surah 107:4). You went on to get upset at us for believing that you thought that 107:4 was automatically put into context... what else were we supposed to think when you said such things as "You said that statement needs to be put into context, I said it didn't".... Apparantly it was us who just didn't understand, but it's you who can't explain yourself properly at this point in time... you having a hard time explaining yourself caused you to flip out and change your words from what I've quoted above to "I did not say you can take one verse from the Koran and automatically understand it; it's common sense that you cannot."... but that's not what you said at first, and you were trying to make it seem like you did, because you cleary did state that you can take one verse from the Quran and understand it.."You said that statement needs to be put into context, I said it didn't"....

You then continued to prove that the Quran had never been changed, and that it's complete... you were constantly proving something that you didnt need to prove djamila.. we all know this... we all agree with this. How does hadith take away from the Quran jamila? Hadith are stories of the prophet who lived the life in which the Quran has set out for us.. we can learn from this.
You continued in the next post to say that following Bukharis hadith makes us demons.. lol.
You say you follow the Quran as closely as possible, but yet you told everyone on this forum that you follow the Bosnian way of Islam, and that drinking alcohol isn't prohibited in Islam..... ???????
You then proceeded to say the shocking quote of the year which was "Praying five times a day is a cultural thing, and not a part of Islam.. very interesting... first time I've heard that one.

So... I've now looked through all of your posts like you asked... and I still have questions which all I want is a simple answer to.

How do you fast and how do you know what breaks a fast?
How do you know what breakes wudu?
How do you know what to say in salaat?
Why do you believe in the Quran since it was in fact transmitted through the prophet? Why is the Quran more believable than the hadiths that also were transmitted through the prophet?
"And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. " [Qur'an 59:7]

How would we know what the Prophet has given us, and what he forbids us if it wasn't for Hadith? I know God has set out what is forbidden in the Quran, but he also makes it clear that the way of life which Muhammed lived, and what he swayed away from.. we too should sway away from... and Alhumduileh we are able to learn about his life through Hadith.
Do you listen and learn from an imams speech?
How do you know how to perform salat?

I am trying to understand jamila... not insult you... I just want to know where you're coming from, and what you do as a muslim... because I am very certain that you do things which come from Hadith,... and I dont understand how you can do such a thing when you don't agree with it. I dont want to ridicule you or call you a bad person... I just want to understand.. and you explaining to me the completeness and perfection of the Quran is something I already understand.. how does Hadith take away from that?

Peace and Blessings
Ezzu

 

[TashaN]

This thread is gargantuan and I ask previously if Muhammad was sinless and a muslim replied yes. How would you explain this:

This is a hadith from Bukhari.

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying." By Allah! I ask for forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance more than seventy times a day."

How would you explain this?

OK hehehehe. I didn't expect this question actually, not because it's strange or difficult but because we "Muslims" know a lot about Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" so that's why sometimes we don't talk in details about it because we know why that or that is in our mind.

Ok i'll explain it to you. By the way, I like the types of threads you post, and questions you ask because it's important and very intelligent. I like it.

Now about your question, I’ll mention for you another hadith in order to understand this issue.

Oh, i do suffer when i look for hadiths in English because i just used to find the Arabic one but maybe my Muslim brother and sisters in here are better than me in finding it. I'll just post the Arabic one trying to translate it for you (sorry, bad translator ).

أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى حتى انتفخت قدماه فقيل له أتكلف هذا وقد غفر الله لك ماتقدم من ذنبك وما تأخر فقال أفلا أكون عبدا شكورا

(صحيح مسلم).

In English it means (almost)...

Prophet Mohammed was praying till his feet got swollen (not sure if this word was right) "because he was praying too much" then they asked him, why are you doing all this and God has forgave your all pervious sins in the past (if there is) and even in the future (even prophet Mohammed don't sin but this term is common as something attributed to prophet Mohammed in term of honor), he replied, why don't i become a thankful servant of God "for this gift". (Sahih Muslim).

The font in black is mine to help in translating the meaning of it in English.

There is two sides in this, one side is Mohammed "the servant of God" whom God have chosen to be the trusted one to hold the message of God to human beings, he is great person and he was known even before the revelation (before he knew that he is a prophet), as Mohammed the truthful, Mohammed the one who keep promises, Mohammed.. Mohammed ..., that's why he is the best ever and the most one who love God and fear him and do all what he can to get closer to God, the same as all prophet before him did so.

Another side is Mohammed "the example", when they see the one who has no sin is doing this, how the rest of Muslims who watch him going to react. Another thing, what if Prophet Mohammed didn't do these extra prayers because he doesn't have to do it because he will go to heaven for guarantee, of course the other Muslims won't feel so happy about it. How come the one who ask them to pray and fast, etc is not doing something better than them. He is a prophet, that's why he is the greatest person ever who was worshipping God more than anyone else. By this example, when i hear about that i wonder, if prophet Mohammed who has no sin and the one who will go to heaven for guarantee was doing that, so what about me? The one who don't know where what will happen to him in the hereafter.

Praying, to Prophet Mohammed, it means feeling comfortable and clam, whether it was the actual praying or the repentance. What the English word refer as repentance doesn't mean the actual repentance from a sin but we Muslims used to say "astigfur Allah ... Astigfur Allah ... astigfur Allah ... astigfur Allah, which means "forgive me ... Forgive me... Forgive me... And this is what appears in the hadith which you posted as "repentance", we repeat it many time most of the time after we finish our prayer and it's a well known custom among Muslims to do so. It's a good thing to repeat it and to ask God to forgive us even though we didn't commit any sin, plus asking God to forgive us from anything we have done, even if we didn't, we used to do so because even we didn't commit a sin but at least as i said before, we will be rewarded for it.

In Islam repentance doesn't necessary to be because of a sin but just in general to be rewarded of God and also to ask God to forgive us for things we did which we no not or we did it, but we don't know it was wrong for instance. Of course, in Islam, if we did something by mistake so that doesn't count as a sin because we didn't mean to do it.

[286] On no soul doth Allah place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; our Lord! lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; help us against those who stand against Faith." (Quran 2:286)

Prophet Mohammed was living for God totally; he was enjoying praying to God. When the time comes for praying, he was saying to "Bilal", the one who used to call for praying "Adhan", let us feel comfortable with it O Bilal (I hope I got it right in English), which means call for praying because it's the thing which make me relax and feel so comfortable.

There is a lot to tell but I’m afraid, this is going too long and you won't be able to catch up to me or to what I’m talking about.

Am i explaining it in the right way or i made you lost in the details?

Please don't hesitate to ask more about this issue if you didn't get the answer yet, or about any other things in Islam whether in here if it's related to the topic at hand or in the Islam forum for any other topics.

Peace and blessing,

The Truth