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Is salvation through Faith alone?
- Thread starter SonOfNun
- Start date
Bishka
Veteran Member
"....so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)
I have come to believe that it is.
The Seeker
Once upon a time....
Isn't baptism also a requirement for salvation?
yeah; sprinklie water on the head must count for something.
Bishka
Veteran Member
The Seeker
Once upon a time....
SonOfNun
Member
God never said that you needed to be baptized to be saved. In fact in the New Testament he says many times, " your faith has made you free". The woman that touched Jesus robe for instance. It was not the touching of the robe that saved her. It was her faith. She was also not baptized.
Bishka
Veteran Member
Then why did Jesus insist on being baptized even though he did not have to be?
Matthew 3:13-15
" 13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to ulfil all drighteousness. Then he suffered him. "
That does not mean there are not certain ordinances needing to be done or other things. It just means what it says -- faith can make you free. Could you please cite those verses?
How do you know that? Were you there? The Bible does not tell us about everything in everyone's lives in it. For all we know, she could have been.
SonOfNun
Member
She was saved when we she touched him.. it doesn't matter if she was baptized... It was through faith that she was saved. Baptism was a symbol of what was going to happen. Just as communion. This symbol can not save. I have been baptized, but baptism doesn't save. Faith, calling on the name of Jesus saves. John 3:16 doesn't say anything about baptism. I believe all Christians should be baptized because Christ was Baptized. And we are to follow in his footsteps.
Bishka
Veteran Member
She was healed -- could you point out to me where it says she was saved. And you still did not answer me about how you knew she was not baptized.
Jesus Christ seemed to think it was. Why else would He get baptized? There would have to be a pretty good reason behind it and all you have shown me is it's just a 'symbol'. A symbol of what? And why did He have to do it?
What symbol of what was going to happen?
Not by itself it cannot. You have to have faith--like I said, faith without works is dead. Could you please respond to that?
So you should blindly follow Christ because the baptism doesn't mean anything? and it's just a symbol? Wow.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
He didn't? The last thing He said to His Apostles before He ascended into Heaven was "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." How on earth can that statement be ignored?
I am aware of five instances in the Bible where Jesus is quoted as having told someone that his/her faith would make him "whole." To my knowledge, there is nowhere where He said that someone's faith would make him "free." If I am mistaken, please correct me.
What He did say was recorded in Matthew 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." And the Apostle Paul reiterated this fact when he explained (in Hebrews 5:9) that Christ "became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."
Again, it appears to me as if you're interpreting scripture rather selectively.
Booko
Deviled Hen
Perhaps the better example would be the theif on the cross "Today you shall be with me in Paradise."
Maybe there are last minute exceptions. In other cases, baptism is an ordinance and I should think it would be something to do out of obedience however one views the sacrament.
That might also be a possibility for why Jesus was baptized, even though it may not be a requirement for salvation -- it was a requirement to be obedient though. If Jesus couldn't obey God's Will goodness He wouldn't be much of a role model for use, would He?
Anyway, just a few stray thoughts.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It might be a good example if Jesus had said, "Today you shall be with me in Heaven," but He didn't. When Mary first saw Him on Easter morning, soon after He was resurrected, He expressly told her not to touch Him since He had not yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. Clearly, if He had been in Paradise with the thief who hung next to Him on the cross on the very day the two of them had died, but hadn't returned to Heaven three days later, Paradise and Heaven are not one and the same.
I don't think there are. I realize that this example is frequently cited by some Christians as evidence that deathbed repentence a doctrinally sound principle, but the truth of the matter is that it flies in the face of everything Jesus taught throughout His ministry. Granted, He was capable of knowing this man's heart, and obviously recognized that his repentence was sincere. We as human beings can only speculate as to the details of the man's crime and even as to whether or not he had been baptized. Heaven knows, there are plenty of baptized Christians on deathrow in prisons throughout the world today.
You already know, of course, my view on Paradise as a part of the Spirit World, so I won't elaborate on that again in this thread. I do believe that the thief in question will eventually join Christ in Heaven, but not because Christ made a "last minute exception" to the "rules."
I think you're right. Jesus did not need to be baptized for the remission of His sins, because He had no sins (i.e. according to Christian theology). But He did need to receive baptism in order to be obedient. Since He led us by example and commanded us to receive this ordinance, it's hard for me to understand why any Christian would say it's unnecessary. How could Christ have been much more clear in telling us what He expected of us?
silvermoon383
Well-Known Member
And what about John 3:5?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I think somebody's going to probably try to tell you that being "born of water" means to experience physical birth.
Experiencing physical birth, however is being "born of the flesh." I can think of only one reason why anyone would try to twist being "born of water" into being physically born, and that is to try to convince himself that Jesus didn't really mean what He said about being baptized. As to why anyone would try to convince himself that Jesus didn't really mean what He said about being baptized, the only explanation I can come up with is that it doesn't seem logical that God would give someone a commandment that he would be unable to keep. I mean what kind of a God would send someone to an eternity in Hell simply for failing to be baptized? Of course, Paul explains that when he speaks to the Corinthians about the practice of proxy baptism.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
I gave a scriptural position concerning this here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43636
I believe that both faith and works are needed...
Faith without works is dead...
Works without faith are meaningless...
Faith without works is dead...
Works without faith are meaningless...