Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah

[firedragon]

Comprehension in context is needed my friend.


Monotheism was not "invented" by King Josiah and his monotheistic reforms.

It was at this time 622 BC that a political change adopted monotheism to Yahweh, because King Josiah was a strict Yahwist.


Not up for debate either. It is as accepted as fact.

Thats it?

YHWH appears in the Hebrew bible which paleographers date to have been recorded in around 900 to 1000 Edit:BC. Hebrew anyway mostly does not have vowels but this word is left without vowels. As explained, this is the third person, masculine, singular, imperfect tense of the verb Hawah. I dont really know what a third person, masculine, singular etc etc means but on the face of it, the root word for this is Hawah which means "he exists".

According to Prof. Donald Redford YHW was the name of a city that the people called Shiatsu lived in southern canaan. Even archaeologists say that the word YHWH was born from that name.

Anyway, even if the name emerged in 622 during King Josiah's time that does not mean much. The name having Yah in it (Yosiyahu) which means reconciled by God or healed by God coupled with the belief that he collected the books of the Tanakh has resulted in the idea of him conceptualising YHWH or Yahweh as commonly pronounced. I know that names in that era having the Yahwish or Yahwistic (A concocted reference for ease btw) effect with no Baal effect as earlier is another reason. Also I understand that the finding of a text mentioning the house of YHWH referring to the Arad sanctuary in Aharoni 1968:16. But that does not God was born then. It is a known fact to historians and archaeologists that the Israelis worshiped many Gods and many idols keeping aside the Biblical accounts. There was always reform and regression, that does not mean suddenly someone came and installed a new name for God. There is a possibility but that's not definite while the popular contention is that Josiah enforced YHWH on idolaters etc, never that he concocted the word.

El means Power or Might, Elohyim is the plural of that, Baal means Lord or owner, Adonai means Lords or My Lords, Shaddai means my chest(s) or my breasts. These words have meanings, though to an English speaker it may look like a proper name like Harvard. Even if some other society or civilisation used one of these names for their God that does not necessarily mean that was picked from them for sure. Languages have roots going back to very ancient history that we cannot truly end tracing.

Also this is another issue with your claim that Muhammed plagiarised from the bible, wonder why he did not pick up YHWH as a name for the God and only referred to the God with a more basic but definite name like Allah, or THE DEITY.

Thus, you only picked up the first sentence in my post!!

You know something?

Never mind.

Peace

 

[outhouse]

Redford has been completely refuted.

It would be great if you did not post until you knew what you were talking about.

What part of it is not up for debate don't you understand?????


This is common knowledge, and it has been posted already.


History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult


After the monarchy emerged at the beginning of Iron Age II, kings promoted their family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court, religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered as it was also for other societies in the ancient Near East


There is a general consensus among scholars that the first formative event in the emergence of the distinctive religion described in the Bible was triggered by the destruction of Israel by Assyria in c. 722 BCE. Refugees came south to Judah, bringing with them laws and a prophetic tradition of Yahweh. This religion was subsequently adopted by the landowners, who in 640 BCE placed on the throne the eight-year-old Josiah. Judah at this time was a vassal state of Assyria, but Assyrian power collapsed in the 630s, and around 622, Josiah and the Deuteronomists launched a bid for independence expressed as loyalty to "Yahweh alone" and in the law-code in the Book of Deuteronomy, written as a treaty between Judah and Yahweh to replace the vassal-treaty with Assyria

 

[outhouse]

Anyway, even if the name emerged in 622 during King Josiah's time that does not mean much.

You should not post until you know what your talking about.

It is obvious you don't have a clue here.

The name did not emerge? , I did not say it did.

I said, monotheism started in Israelite culture around 622BC, at which time it was not fully accepted.


Monotheism did not exist before this time in Israelite culture.


Its just one of many mistakes that shows and proves your books are flat plagiarized.

El means Power or Might

Do you think one small description fits a god of many different cultures that has existed for thousands of years???


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

ʾĒl (written aleph-lamed, e.g. Ugaritic: ����, Phoenician: ����, Classical Syriac: ܐܠ, Hebrew: אל‎, Arabic: إل‎ or إله, cognate to Akkadian: ilu) is a North-West Semitic word meaning "deity".

In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, El or Il was a god also known as the Father of humanity and all creatures, and the husband of the goddess Asherah as recorded in the clay tablets of Ugarit (modern Ra′s Shamrā—Arabic: رأس شمرا‎, Syria).[3]

The bull was symbolic to El and his son Baʻal Hadad, and they both wore bull horns on their headdress.[4][5][6][7] He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam, and Mot.

 

[firedragon]

Redford has been completely refuted.

It would be great if you did not post until you knew what you were talking about.

What part of it is not up for debate don't you understand?????

Oh you are real gentleman and a true ambassador of Harvard. Your language is impeccable.

How about the rest of the post and where are your sources for the claim that Muhammed translated from Hebrew and Greek. And that Quran canonised several centuries later after Muhammed. And that Quran was plagiarised from the bible.

This is common knowledge, and it has been posted already.


History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have pointed to the most credible source. Brother, I have read this. It is on the internet.

Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult

After the monarchy emerged at the beginning of Iron Age II, kings promoted their family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court, religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered as it was also for other societies in the ancient Near East

There is a general consensus among scholars that the first formative event in the emergence of the distinctive religion described in the Bible was triggered by the destruction of Israel by Assyria in c. 722 BCE. Refugees came south to Judah, bringing with them laws and a prophetic tradition of Yahweh. This religion was subsequently adopted by the landowners, who in 640 BCE placed on the throne the eight-year-old Josiah. Judah at this time was a vassal state of Assyria, but Assyrian power collapsed in the 630s, and around 622, Josiah and the Deuteronomists launched a bid for independence expressed as loyalty to "Yahweh alone" and in the law-code in the Book of Deuteronomy, written as a treaty between Judah and Yahweh to replace the vassal-treaty with Assyria

I am not here to prove that everything in the bible is true or that YHWH is a true God or anything of the sort. You are delving in it because that's all you could do, though you tell everyone else that you are Harvard material and that no one else is educated enough.

Give me your reasons for your claims and refute arguments in my previous posts with out pretending they dont exist. Lol. One sentence you picked up, because thats all you can, and is the least relevant.

 

[outhouse]

Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A large body of scholars, following William Dever, argue that the archaeological evidence suggests that the Israelites arose peacefully and internally in the highlands of Canaan.[31] In Dever's words, "most of those who came to call themselves Israelites ... were or had been indigenous Canaanites."

Several pieces of evidence have led scholars to the conclusion that El was the original "God of Israel"


This is why your books have no value for real history, they don't know history.

They know PLAGIARIZED mythology steeped in rhetoric.

 

[outhouse]

You have pointed to the most credible source.

You would not know a credible source if it bit you.


I would have more patients for you, but it is the willful ignorance that I have little patients for.


You are making arguments from ignorance, and not refuting anything I have posted.


Shasu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Donald B. Redford[5] thinks it reasonable to conclude that the demonym 'Israel' recorded on the Merneptah Stele refers to a Shasu

The proposed link between the Israelites and the Shasu may, however, be undermined by the fact that in the Merneptah reliefs, the group later known as the Israelites are not described or depicted as Shasu. The Shasu are usually depicted hieroglyphically with a determinative indicating a land not a people.

 

[outhouse]

Muhammed translated from Hebrew and Greek.

.

Still working on that. And I don't know how much muhammed may have even wrote.


I can provide a biased link that will state just that. I however would rather find something more credible.

It does not matter what I post, you have refused all credible knowledge and education provided thus far.

So why should I waist my time on YOUR goose hunt?

You will only refuse what I post.

 

[outhouse]

I am not here to prove that everything in the bible is true
.

WHY?

Your books credibility rides on the bibles accuracy, for one reason and one reason only!


It was plagiarized.



What is proven as mythology in Israelite cultures, proves mythology in your books, which means your books are not divinely inspired at all. They are man made and plagiarized.

 

[outhouse]

https://sites.google.com/site/arabichebrewlexicon/introduction/3-hebrew-loan-words-in-the-qur-an

the religious terminology of monotheism as found in Islam's holy book does includes a number of words that bear striking similarity to words of Hebrew origin that had already been in use for as long as a millennium.

 

[firedragon]

https://sites.google.com/site/arabichebrewlexicon/introduction/3-hebrew-loan-words-in-the-qur-an

the religious terminology of monotheism as found in Islam's holy book does includes a number of words that bear striking similarity to words of Hebrew origin that had already been in use for as long as a millennium.

Not only terminology, there are more resemblances in the two languages, much more.

Anyway

Try and answer the concerns in this post. If not, that's still alright with me.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3858166-post120.html

Peace.

 

[paarsurrey]

The quran must have copied the bible because the bible was written first and so it was easier to use it as a template etc. For writting the quran.

It is just a guess.

There is no such template in Torah that Quran followed.

Have you read both Torah and Quran.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah

@ Outhouse; others could also join this discussion if they like.

Quran has 114 chapters; some very long and some of only a few verses. We start with the shorter ones.

The chapters at the end of Quran are very short and the Muslims usually read one of them after reciting Surah Al-Fatihah in every rukaat or standing position of the Muslim prayer.

For the next outhouse-exercise to find the elements in the chapters of Quran that have been literally copied from Torah, written or verbal, or influenced from Torah or plagiarized from it we select yet another Chapter of Quran:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 112: Al-Ikhlas

[112:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
[112:3] ‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] ‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
[112:5] ‘And there is none like unto Him.’

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Anybody please; a Jew or a non-Jew to prove that Quran has been copied from Jewish Bible/Torah.

Scholars/Professors/Students of Harvard and or Yale or any University in the world or of Tel Aviv University who have read both Torah and Quran are welcome to prove it from the text of both the scriptures.

Regards

 

[idav]

Quran clearly mentions that it is recorded in Jewish writings.

I mention from Quran:

[5:33] On account of this, We prescribed for the children of Israel that whosoever killed a person — unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land — it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and whoso gave life to one, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And Our Messengers came to them with clear Signs, yet even after that, many of them commit excesses in the land.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

So; it is mentioned that it has been mentioned in the Jewish writings.

Regards

It says that messengers had a clear sign, not that anything specific was mentioned. I gave some writing that was copied verbatim.

If you contend that quran mentions the words already existed before, then it was copied, as I already thought. So then there you have it.

 

[outhouse]

Try and answer the concerns in this post..

.

I already did, and your biased opinion, does not refute the credible sources I have provided.

 

[outhouse]

Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah

Comprehensive skills are required here. Your lacking them.


No one states they copied the bible, word for word.


All credible historians claim it was plagiarized, and apologist [you] cannot understand this.

 

[firedragon]

I already did, and your biased opinion, does not refute the credible sources I have provided.

Peace bro.

 

[outhouse]

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[79] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[80] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah



What part of this is not up for debate, don't you understand??????????

 

[firedragon]

The quran must have copied the bible because the bible was written first and so it was easier to use it as a template etc. For writting the quran.

Must have been is not a good technical analysis brother. If you have I don't mean to underestimate you but if you have not, it is not wise to say it must be because something was written before another book.

On the face of it brother, the bible has at least 40 authors, I say again at least. And these books were written at different times. I understand that the bible existed before Muhammed but hypothetically if God existed and Muhammed is a prophet, God will give him the message right. So it is a matter of what we believe. Since you don't believe in Muhammed you make an assertion like you posted "Must be" because that's the only answer. How could Muhammed know about Moses? He must have read the bible. Obvious answer. But maybe you should go through a post that I included here, intended elsewhere but if you go through and remark, it might shed some light to me, if not also you.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3858166-post120.html

If you are not interested that's your wish for sure. But is not that better than simply making a "must be" assertion?

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

It says that messengers had a clear sign, not that anything specific was mentioned. I gave some writing that was copied verbatim.

If you contend that quran mentions the words already existed before, then it was copied, as I already thought. So then there you have it.

Did you post what was copied verbatim? In this thread? If not could you provide them again please.

Thanks.

 

[outhouse]

if God existed and Muhammed is a prophet, God will give him the message right.


.

The supernatural is not a method used by any credible historian,


We are dealing with historical questions, not your biased apologetics.


Scientifically, your god does not exist, no god does. Your prophet is not even known to have written the books you have.