Is progressive revelation believable?

[Vinayaka]

And that is exactly the problem. Can we ask and can we listen without telling you that your beliefs are wrong? As with Christianity, Baha'is are forced to come up with alternative interpretations that, for them, can still make the Bible "God's Word", but not mean what it says.

I don't see them as coming up with an alternative, but rather just being selective (confirmation bias) about what they bring forward out of an incredibly vast and diverse array of beliefs. They select the stuff that somehow 'fits'. But hey this is all old news. Good to keep posting, for the readers who happen along though.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God can do whatever He wants to do whenever He wants to do it, because God is Omnipotent.

Your imagination and superstition is working overtime. Gods \ messengers \ Maids of Heaven \ jinns \ ghosts \ flying spaghetti monster \ pink unicorns \ Cthulhu are not reality.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Why don't you believe in islam or the baha'i faith?

They deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is uniquely divine.

 

[Aupmanyav]

All of them brought a new calendar? Or, did their followers start counting days and years from a significant event in their prophets life? And, what if there was no new calendar, then they weren't a true messenger?

Hindu calendar is not related to life of any person that we worship. It was based on an astronomical event, the vernal equinox, in the original home of Indo-Eurorans. When the they left their original homeland, the pattern of weather in the new lands changed. That was because of the precession of equinox over many millenniums. We changed the beginning of the year by three months over a period of some 6,000 years. Finally we shifted to a calendar based on zodiac, entry of sun in the zodiac of the Ram (Mesha). Calendar and its synchronization with weather is an astronomical event. It has to be changed by one month every 2000 years. If the calendar is not changed you will find Christmas shifting to autumn in 6,000 years. If any calendar does not take it into consideration, it will go wrong in time.

We do have festivals related to Gods and Goddesses we worship and persons we rever, e.g., Holi, Diwali, Guru poornima (Full Moon in June \ July), related to the compiler of Vedas and the writer of Mahabharata and many other books, Sage VedaVyasa; and Valmiki Jayanti (Full Moon in October \ November), related to the writer of Ramayana, Sage Valmiki.

Christmas, which has been borrowed from the Romans (Festival of the Sol Invictus), is really the uncorrected beginning of the year of Indo-Europeans. Roman calendar-keeping was very poor and it was politically inspired.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But on Mahavira, we are agreed. He is utterly unique in religious philosophy, Eastern or Western.

Not very unique in India when you remember that Naga and Aghori ascetics of Hinduism have the same belief about non-possession.

But sometimes I wonder why hold on to a revelation of old when the prophecies from that revelation has been fulfilled.

We do not have any prophesies. These are stories to satisfy the ignoramuses, and put them off for 425,000 years. This is to avoid any charlatans to take recourse to that. And Bahaullah has done exactly that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your imagination and superstition is working overtime. Gods \ messengers \ Maids of Heaven \ jinns \ ghosts \ flying spaghetti monster \ pink unicorns \ Cthulhu are not reality.

Gods and Messengers and the Maid of Heaven are reality but the rest of what you listed are imaginary.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Haha, accepting what suits you. We understand. We are not the ignoramuses and gullibles that Bahaullah was preaching to.

So, you do make exclusive claims concerning 'enough Divine Education through Hinduism and Buddha, and of course 'No one can provide any better than that.'

I was quoting sarcastically on your mention of 'divine education'. Actually there is no 'divine education', it is the society which decides what is the best. Hindu society decided its laws based on our multitude of wise people. It has been refined over some 5,000 years. It requires no change. We know what we have to do.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hindu calendar is not related to life of any person that we worship. It was based on an astronomical event, the vernal equinox

Yeah, I thought that it a little odd that Baha'is would believe that a new messenger would bring a new calendar.

 

[CG Didymus]

Personally, Siva is God, and includes the powers of Brahma and Vishnu, or emanation and sustaining. Nataraja's drum represents emanation, and his upheld hand represents sustaining. Vishnu (and the 2 last avatars) and Siva, along with the Mother goddess (Shakti) are what Hinduism is focused on these days. It's all way outside Baha'i paradigms. (As you probably suspected) Of course I rarely get asked anything, or present much.

Are there "special" messengers, like the Baha'i "manifestations", that brought the teachings of Siva? Or, were they incarnations? And/or, can anyone that reaches a pure enough state get inspiration from Siva and then pass it on to others? Or, something completely different then any of those? Oh, and what Hindu Scriptures do you believe in and how did those writings come to be?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, I would not consider any Bahai belief as odd, superstitious and gullible people have such kind of beliefs, about Gods, manifestations, Maids of Heaven, etc.

Are there "special" messengers, like the Baha'i "manifestations", that brought the teachings of Siva? Or, were they incarnations? And/or, can anyone that reaches a pure enough state get inspiration from Siva and then pass it on to others? Or, something completely different then any of those? Oh, and what Hindu Scriptures do you believe in and how did those writings come to be?

I will let Vinayaka to reply about Siva, but our scriptures are writings of wise men found true over many millenniums. Though most Hindus believe in Vedas being the word of God; Patanjali, the Sanskrit grammarian of around 800-400 BC clarified that Vedas are not the word of God. The language keeps changing but it is the intent which is eternal.

 

[CG Didymus]

Your imagination and superstition is working overtime. Gods \ messengers \ Maids of Heaven \ jinns \ ghosts \ flying spaghetti monster \ pink unicorns \ Cthulhu are not reality.

So what's up there in the spirit world? God, this Maid of Heaven, which I wonder who they say she is, and then all of the spirits of all the manifestations, and a Concourse on High, whatever that is? And how different is that than believing a Supreme God and then lessor Gods that help the Supreme God? Since I would imagine all these spirit beings are very Holy and pure and God-like and must have some God-like powers?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But, is Krishna a real, historical person? And, if he is, then what about the other avatars? Do Baha'is recognize them? Do Baha'is believe they were real? At some point wouldn't make more sense to just say they were "mythical"?

CG - That is all in the Kitab-i-iqan, which you may choose to read it one day. I see we are way past answering those same questions, thread after thread, do you not agree?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

CG - That is all in the Kitab-i-iqan, which you may choose to read it one day. I see we are way past answering those same questions, thread after thread, do you not agree?

Regards Tony

Is Krishna mentioned in the Iqan?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Adrian said that the "progression" is not linear. So why use the grade school analogy.

Isn't it more like the ancient religions had some strange beliefs. Like if they believed in many Gods, they were wrong. And the newer religions addressed that problem. Judaism, Christianity and probably Islam would say that those religions were false.

But not Baha'is, as with Hinduism. What can Baha's say? That "originally" Hinduism believed in only one God, but they misinterpreted their own Scriptures, or somebody added things into their Scriptures that was not taught by the messenger? That made it seem like there were several Gods?

That's not grade school. That's more like Baha'is going back and retrofitting the older religions to fit into the Baha'i progression.

Because in progression there is also seasons of decline so the line is not linear, but a new revelation includes what was taught before, it brings it back into practice and expands upon the knowledge. Much like this;

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is Krishna mentioned in the Iqan?

No Krishna is not. The Kitab-i-iqan is inclusive of all Messengers, even in the absence of mentioning each and every one. That in its essence, to me, is its purpose. After we read it it is left to us to consider who are the sources of light to this world and what remains of what they have taught.

We can weigh all we have done to reject the Messengers, against all they have proven to be the sources of Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Are there "special" messengers, like the Baha'i "manifestations", that brought the teachings of Siva? Or, were they incarnations? And/or, can anyone that reaches a pure enough state get inspiration from Siva and then pass it on to others? Or, something completely different then any of those? Oh, and what Hindu Scriptures do you believe in and how did those writings come to be?

Mostly your third sentence.

I won't go into detail here because that would hijack this thread. Suffice it to say the topic is vast.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So what's up there in the spirit world? God, this Maid of Heaven, which I wonder who they say she is, and then all of the spirits of all the manifestations, and a Concourse on High, whatever that is? And how different is that than believing a Supreme God and then lessor Gods that help the Supreme God? Since I would imagine all these spirit beings are very Holy and pure and God-like and must have some God-like powers?

You are welcome to whatever belief you have. We Hindu Advaitists (believers in non-duality) term it as Brahman. For me, Brahman is not God (that is why it is always addressed as 'it' and not as 'He' or 'She'. It is physical energy, with which we started at the time of Big Bang. My Brahman is eternal, changeless, formless and uninvolved. Its existence itself creates the illusion of the universe. It is not even bound by the rules of existence and non-existence (virtual particles), that is a human perspective. Of course, it is not the majority view among Hindu Advaitists.

* in Kitab-i-iqan.
You people have weighed and rejected everyone except Bahaullah. No weighing for him.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No Krishna is not*.

We can weigh all we have done to reject the Messengers, against all they have proven to be the sources of Truth.

* in Kitab-i-iqan.
You people have weighed and rejected everyone except Bahaullah. No weighing for him.

Are there "special" messengers, like the Baha'i "manifestations", that brought the teachings of Siva? Or, were they incarnations? And/or, can anyone that reaches a pure enough state get inspiration from Siva and then pass it on to others? Or, something completely different then any of those?

Yeah, that would be a tangent to this Bahai topic. Come to Hindu forum and we will discuss it. You might find it interesting.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

* in Kitab-i-iqan.
You people have weighed and rejected everyone except Bahaullah. No weighing for him.

It appears you have not read or understood what the Kitab-i-Iqan has offered.

There would be many Messengers from the East, West, North, South, this universe on other worlds, other universes, other worlds, that a Baha'i could and most likley would accept are a source of Truth. If they could find any record of them that is reliable.

The greatest proof is what remains of the Light the Prophets offered from God. If the Faith is practiced in words that promote good deeds and kind actions and pure moral thought.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I won't go into detail here because that would hijack this thread. Suffice it to say the topic is vast.

I'd like to hear about it someday when I have time, hopefully if I ever retire, which hopefully should be next year.... hopefully.