Is Nibanna a paradox?

[Neo-Logic]

Nibanna is best described as a state of mind, achieved, only by those who have been conditioned to do so. Summed up, it's a state of nothingness. It is as if you had disappeared into the blink of oblivion and this is what the ultimate goal of Theravada Buddhism is.

In order to achieve Nibanna, one has to meditate for decades, perhaps. Nibanna itself is said to be undescribable to someone who has not experienced it; comparable to me trying to describe to you how a certain food that you have never tasted, tastes.

This in itself is a kind of paradox, in my opinion. One cannot achieve Nibanna without decades of meditation and others can't describe to you what it is. Therefore, how the hell do you know it exists or that it's even real? Yes, the answer is you have to meditate for decades.

This brings up an interesting point. If, after decades of meditation, you still do not achieve Nibanna, what then? Your life has been wasted too much to find a good job or pursue education for a successful career. Would you then resort to being a monk for the rest of your life, or worse, make up the fact that you have achieved Nibanna in order to ease the pain of failure knowing that you wasted decades of your life searching for something that is false and does not exist.

Basically, to find out if Nibanna is real or not, you have to dedicate your life to it. And if it doesn't, then what? You're screwed is what. This is what I dislike about the concept of "achieving Nibanna."

Well, this is open for discussion. Take it away guys.

 

[Engyo]

Nibanna is best described as a state of mind, achieved, only by those who have been conditioned to do so. Summed up, it's a state of nothingness. It is as if you had disappeared into the blink of oblivion and this is what the ultimate goal of Theravada Buddhism is.

In order to achieve Nibanna, one has to meditate for decades, perhaps. Nibanna itself is said to be undescribable to someone who has not experienced it; comparable to me trying to describe to you how a certain food that you have never tasted, tastes.

This in itself is a kind of paradox, in my opinion. One cannot achieve Nibanna without decades of meditation and others can't describe to you what it is. Therefore, how the hell do you know it exists or that it's even real? Yes, the answer is you have to meditate for decades.

This brings up an interesting point. If, after decades of meditation, you still do not achieve Nibanna, what then? Your life has been wasted too much to find a good job or pursue education for a successful career. Would you then resort to being a monk for the rest of your life, or worse, make up the fact that you have achieved Nibanna in order to ease the pain of failure knowing that you wasted decades of your life searching for something that is false and does not exist.

Basically, to find out if Nibanna is real or not, you have to dedicate your life to it. And if it doesn't, then what? You're screwed is what. This is what I dislike about the concept of "achieving Nibanna."

Well, this is open for discussion. Take it away guys.

I can understand your apprehension regarding this interpretation of the Buddha's teachings; it's also the main reason why I don't practice Theravada Buddhism myself. I would point out, though, that few people are going to devote decades to something that they feel they are receiving no benefit from. I personally think it unlikely that at the age of 80, a monk is going to slap his/her head and say "D'oh" feeling that his/her life has been a total waste. Very few people would carry it that far, without some feeling of accomplishment/achievement during the interim.

My Buddhist tradition looks at Nirvana (Nibbana) as pretty much a side effect if you will; we regard the Theravadan teachings as a basis; a partial teaching which was introduced to raise peoples' capacity/capability to the level required to be able to understand the totality of Buddha's teachings. Therefore, we do not set out with Nirvana as a goal. It may be something we achieve along the Path, but it is not something we strive for.

 

[lilithu]

Nibanna is best described as a state of mind, achieved, only by those who have been conditioned to do so. Summed up, it's a state of nothingness. It is as if you had disappeared into the blink of oblivion and this is what the ultimate goal of Theravada Buddhism is.

Nibbana is not a state of mind and it is not achieved by conditioning. Nibbana is "unconditioned." The Buddha achieved nibbana and continued to live and teach for over forty years.

In order to achieve Nibanna, one has to meditate for decades, perhaps. Nibanna itself is said to be undescribable to someone who has not experienced it; comparable to me trying to describe to you how a certain food that you have never tasted, tastes.

The Buddha achieved nibbana after six or seven years of trying. However, he spent most of that time barking up the wrong trees, so to speak - meditating with two different masters who could not give him what he sought and then depriving himself as an ascetic. When he figured out what he had been doing wrong, he attained nibbana in the course of one night.

Yes, it's indescribable, because we only understand things as conditioned beings. We cannot understand the unconditioned.

This in itself is a kind of paradox, in my opinion. One cannot achieve Nibanna without decades of meditation and others can't describe to you what it is. Therefore, how the hell do you know it exists or that it's even real? Yes, the answer is you have to meditate for decades.

I hope it's clear from what I've said above that you do not have to meditate for decades. Buddhist scripture is full of people who heard the Buddha's message and realised nibbana rather quickly. And I am talking about scriptures in the Therevada cannon.

Basically, to find out if Nibanna is real or not, you have to dedicate your life to it. And if it doesn't, then what? You're screwed is what. This is what I dislike about the concept of "achieving Nibanna."

How is that different from any other religion? One could spend one's entire life believing that one is saved thru Christ and then die with no afterlife. You might then think that you'd wasted your life except that you wouldn't exist to have that regret.

Any religion worth its salt demands that you dedicate your life to it, not in terms of just meditation or just going to church, but in terms of you living the tenets of your faith. As Kierkegaard points out, it's a gamble and what's at stake is the entirety of your life. If you've dedicated it to something good, if you've lived your life the way you feel it should have been lived, you will have no regrets at the end even if there is no reward. The life you lived is your reward. Anything else is gravy.

 

[Ozzie]

I know this is an old thread, but one worth restarting IMO.

Nibbana is not a paradox, IMO. As Lilithu wrote, it could be achieved quickly rather than after decades of meditation with right understanding.

I think Nibbana might more accurately be described as unlocking a paradox, that of the coupling of self and causation.

Any comments?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Though I'm not Buddhist, I really do not see decades of meditation as "wasted life." The benefits of meditation are too great for it to be such.

 

[koan]

Nibbana/nirvarna is the realisation that everything is conditioned, then not being caught up in these conditions.
Two monks walking down the road in Sung China, come across a lady dressed in her best finery wanting to cross a muddy road. The lady, was standing there looking rather perplexed, when one monk went over to her, picked her up and carried her to the other side of the road. Later as the two monks were heading back to the monestary, the gallant monk noticed his companion was rather upset. "What's wrong", asked the gallant monk. "You touched a women", commented the upset monk. "Why I mealy picked her up and put her down", replied the gallant monk. "You on the other hand", said the gallant monk "Are still carrying her". This is a good example of the gallant monk having reached Nirvana.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
Only way to know a thing is to experience it.
Discussions are discussions hence precious time will be lost in that which can be used fir meditation. Besides everything is here -now. Time is immerial. Each human is here since the begin of life itself so who knows how many past lives have been spent in meditation already. One needs just another life to come back afetr witnessing death thereafter the cycle of birth and death is complete.
Love & rgds

 

[Ozzie]

Friends,
Only way to know a thing is to experience it.
Discussions are discussions hence precious time will be lost in that which can be used fir meditation. Besides everything is here -now. Time is immerial. Each human is here since the begin of life itself so who knows how many past lives have been spent in meditation already. One needs just another life to come back afetr witnessing death thereafter the cycle of birth and death is complete.
Love & rgds

The cycle is not inevitable. Discussion is valuable don't you think?

 

[Engyo]

mind

screen

both are empty

 

[zenzero]

Ozzie,
Discussion is valuable don't you think?

The word THINK?
Understand, Meditation starts where Thinking STOPS.
When thinking stops meditation starts so does understanding so does flowing so does being, so does awareness. Unless one understands this vital point one cannot progress one will make do with thinking about paradise/salvation/nirvana etc..
So, its time to wake up.
Love & rgds

 

[Ozzie]

Ozzie,
Discussion is valuable don't you think?

The word THINK?
Understand, Meditation starts where Thinking STOPS.
When thinking stops meditation starts so does understanding so does flowing so does being, so does awareness. Unless one understands this vital point one cannot progress one will make do with thinking about paradise/salvation/nirvana etc..
So, its time to wake up.
Love & rgds

No meditation is observation which has nothing to do with where thinking STOPS (your words) or starts. Meditation is a process that may lead to the other things with right understanding. I think you make a valid though obvious point in pointing out that thinking about a destination blocks progress towards it.

How do you think meditation should be practised correctly?

 

[zenzero]

No meditation is observation which has nothing to do with where thinking STOPS (your words) or starts. Meditation is a process that may lead to the other things with right understanding. I think you make a valid though obvious point in pointing out that thinking about a destination blocks progress towards it.

Ozzie,
The point is still missed. thinking, reading etc are all like having a road map, planning ahead etc. Meditation itself is the stage where UNDERSTANDING grows not that meditation and understanding.
Rgds the MIND once again understand the words of Lao Tzu understand that the mind is both the key and the barrier. Barrier as you pointed out about blocking progress etc. The mind as the KEY is that it has to be stilled made inactive like ripples in a lake. One cannot do anything to calm the lake as any effort will agitate the water more and make it more muddy; similarly the more you activate it the more confused you become. Allow all thoughts to settle then meditation starts on its own accord. Doing Nothing.
The stick of Zen master is just that to keep reminding students to stop the mind.
Mind picturises everything thats its nature and creates gods as per individual order and requirement, mind takes sides either this or that duality. The point where duality is no more is meditation.
Love & rgds

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Why I mealy picked her up and put her down", replied the gallant monk. "You on the other hand", said the gallant monk "Are still carrying her".

Nice. Nibbana, jnana, nirvana, moksha, understanding; it comes in a flash, of course, unconditioning is necessary.