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Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Blessed of JEHOVAH, Nov 2, 2016.

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  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Sure okay, it's just the wording. Anyway He was born of the Spirit in the resurrection but that's another story.
     
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well that's interesting. So explain how Jesus was begotten before He was begotten and explain How he was born without a womb? Don't you see that Jesus was the Son of God by predestination but that the time came when in reality He became what He always was in predestiny?

    And you say Jesus is separate from the Father yet He is the brightness of the Father's glory? Explain that. Because the scripture says that God will not give His glory to another. (Isaiah 48:11)
     
  3. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, Jesus was a human being and had to be human to die on the cross for our sins. Don't you know He was said to be a Lamb slain and their names are written from the foundation of the world in the Lamb's book of Life? (Rev. 13:8) Yet there came the time when the Lamb(which must be human because He must die) actually did in reality what He was predestined to do before the world began. So He was made worthy to open the seals and received a (human) name above all names. That at the name of Jesus every knee would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord unto the glory of the Father. Now, how does it glorify the Father when we say Jesus is Lord? Because Jesus is the Father manifest in human form.

    The Father is a Spirit (John 4:24) and the Son is flesh and blood. That is why one is Superior and the other subordinate. The Son came (who is God manifest in the flesh) into the world so that He could take all power in human form and therefore redeem all humanity to Himself again. (Colossians 1:20) As He said All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. And the Father said Sit thou at my Right hand Until I make your enemies your footstool. God says this to a human(who is glorified yes, but still the Son of man). So Jesus must sit on the right hand until all His enemies are made His footstool and this is almost accomplished. Then the Son will deliver the kingdom up to the Father as it says.
     
  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    God sends His Spirit to wherever He wills (Psalm 104:30, John 15:26) and the Spirit of God certainly came in the body of a human being.(Col 2:8-10; Hebrews 10:5) That is He was veiled so that we may not look upon His glory yet or we would be destroyed.

    Soon the whole world will know and tremble because the Son of man is coming back in the glory of God. (Matthew 16:27) Everyone will know in that day there is one God who does not share His glory with another.
     
  5. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    Yes If your not indoctrinated with the man made doctrine of the trinity and take the scriptures for what they actually say and portray as I have demonstrated over and over in my dialog with you
     
  6. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Then you don't believe what Jesus taught. Jesus taught that only He can show the Father. It's not so obvious as you claim it is.

    He said that no one knows who the Son is except the Father and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and he to whom the Son will reveal Him. (Matthew 11:27)

    And John the baptist said that a man can receive nothing unless it is given to him from above.
     
  7. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    Okay you want to know how Jesus was begotten before he was begotten.How was he born without a womb ?

    This question presumes that Jesus only came into existence when he was born of Mary . Now examine this scriptures very carefully. John 6:38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Did you see that Jesus confesses
    I came down from Heaven. You see he did come from Mary,s womb. He came from Heaven. Marys womb was just the vehicle or means by which he came into this human world. Thats what the scriptures says. Thats what I believe.

    Now as to how was he born without a womb.. Adam and Even were born without the womb.


    You
    Don't you see that Jesus was the Son of God by predestination but that the time came when in reality He became what He always was in predestiny?
    All the scriptures that foretell the coming Messiah all describe the Mission that The Majesty on high had planed for his only begotten to fulling. Jesus was already a Son of God before he came to earth 1 John 4:9.John 6:38 John 6:62 John 3:31 John 1:30. All these passages identify Jesus as existing before he came to earth as a savior.

    Your giving the term the Son of God an exclusive association with only having being born of a woman. But Jesus was Gods only begotten Son before he was sent by the Majesty on high to earth to fulfill his Fathers will. John 6:38. I came to do my Fathers will and again 1 John 4:9 in this was the love of God manifested towards us that he sent his only begotten son into the world.

    Did you see that, Jesus who said He came from heaven and not from Marys womb ,
    John 6:38. Who already was Gods only Begotten Son 1 John 4:9 Before he came to earth Was sent.

    Look at that word Sent. It means to come from one place and go to another place. If One comes from one place and goes to another it means that one existed before he came to the other place.

    The place that Jesus came from was heaven not from Marys womb.
    John 6:38. 1 John 4:9.John 6:38 John 6:62 John 3:31 John 1:30. John 3:16 The place that Jesus was sent too was earth as mankind. Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

    Its interesting though when you thing about the process by which Jesus took part in being mankind. God could have made Jesus mankind like he did Adam with out being born of a woman.

    But thats not what God wanted. He wanted his only begotten Son the sacrificial lamb without a blemish with out a spot to become mankind through the birth of a woman so that Jesus could get the full scope of what it meant to be human. That is coming as a baby having to develop through all the growing stages of mankind. Tried /tempted and tested . The full human experience.

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    Did yo see that It says Jesus took on him the seed of Abraham not of angels. In other words Jesus the only begotten Son of the Majesty on high declined coming to earth as an angel but fully human just like Abraham

    Heb 4:15 For we have not a high priest that can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities. But was in every point tempted like as we. yet without sin. Fully human

    H
    eb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, You see Jesus wanted to be made Just like the rest of mankind. Fully Human.


    You
    And you say Jesus is separate from the Father yet He is the brightness of the Father's glory? Explain that. Because the scripture says that God will not give His glory to another. (Isaiah 48:11)[/QUOTE]


    Lets be clear Jesus and the Apostle and Prophets say Jesus is separate from the Majesty on High

    1. Jesus
    John 6:38 I came not to do my own will but my fathers will. Jesus has a will. The Majesty on high has a will that separate
    2. Apostle Paul
    Eph 1:17 that the God of our lord Jesus Christ. Jesus has a God over him. Thats separate.
    3. Prophets.
    Dan 7:13 One like the son of man came unto the ancient of days. Thats separate.

    Brightness of his Glory. Thats a life of righteousness which we are called too as well
    1 Pet 1:3 who has called us unto Glory and virtue.. Did you see that we are to have that same brightness of Glory. 1 pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;. Thats brightness of Glory.

    As to not giving his glory to another. The context is Idolatry. God was not going to allow the Israelite declare that there Idols were th e reason for there success as a nation. Thus giving their Idols Glory and Not the majesty on High the glory
    Isa 48:5

    So your trying to make the connection that Jesus and God are the same because in your interpretation of Glory
    Isa 48:11 that Glory is the Majesty on Highs and only his. Therefore Jesus Is God.

    But your mistaken. There is no connection . The context is clear. The Majesty on high was not going to let the Israelites get by by giving their Idols the glory instead of God. He punished them for placing his glory on their Idols.



     
  8. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    Your misrepresenting the context of Isa 48:11. He does not share it with Idols . But he sure shares it with his Son. Dan 7:13-14 .Eph 1:22

    Nope The Holy Spirit is not a person. 1 John 1:3 that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Did you see that John left out the person of the Holy Spirit in the fellowship. Because the Holy spirit is not a person . Again over and over all the epistle start with a greeting
    1Eph 1:2 Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. All of Pauls and Peters epistle greeting leave out the person of the holy Spirit because its not a person.
     
  9. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    Thats true 1 john 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    You seem to think that this passage demonstrates that Jesus and God are one. Heb 1:3 Jesus is not the Majesty on High. John 20:17 Jesus has a God over him.

    If you would only believe what the Hebrew write taught you would not be entangled in the doctrine of Men.

    What this passage is demonstrating is the exclusive unique privileged relationship Jesus has with the Majesty on High. And certainty Jesus has revealed his Father the Majesty on High to us. Thats what the New testament does. It revealed the Majesty on high to us through the Gospel message.
     
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well you need to find where Jesus actually does show them the Father. It's in John 14:8-9. Philip asks Jesus to show them the Father.

    John 14:8-9
    Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    What you're confusing about Jesus in Heb 1:3 and John 20:17 is that Jesus is fully human. The nature of Jesus being both human and Divine is called the "hypostasis". You can google that word if you want. So as the Son of man He sits on the right hand of God. This is so that in human(glorified human) form He can subdue all the enemies of humanity. He does it for our sakes. " Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Once Jesus the Son of man's mission is accomplished then He will deliver the kingdom up to the Father so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24) This does not take place until death is destroyed and cast into the lake of fire. Death is the last enemy to be subdued under the feet of the Son of man. (1 Corinthians 15:26)

    Sitting on the Right hand of God is a position of power. In fact it signifies that the Son of man has been given ALL power in heaven and earth. (Matthew 28:18) And in Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62 we see that Jesus sits "on the right hand of Power". So it's a position of power and authority for the Son of man. Luke 22:69 makes this abundantly clear when we see that the Son of man sits on the "Right hand of the Power of God". In 1 Peter 3:22 we see that Jesus is gone to heaven and sitting on the right hand of God; all angels and authorities and powers are made subject unto Him.

    So all this power is for the Son of man. So that through this power God can redeem humanity to Himself again. This is why God came in human form to take this power for Himself so that He could defeat our enemies.

    "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Corinthians 5:19)

    This is why in Revelation 11:17 we see what appears to be a paradox. The Almighty has taken to Himself power and has reigned? How? Doesn't the Almighty already have all power? Yet, the Almighty took to Himself power and reigned in the form of the Son of man Jesus Christ.

    (Revelation 11:17)
    Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
     
  11. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    God shares His glory with no one. No idol, no angel or human. The glory of God can only be shared with Christ because Christ is God manifest. Even some of the Jews thought Jesus was stealing the glory of God when Jesus said "I and my Father are One". Those Jews could not believe it; but can you?

    The holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. I do not believe that God is three persons. He is one Person. He has one Spirit which so happens to be very holy.
     
  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    No I believe Jesus did exist beforehand. He is always God. Now He also existed as the Son of man through foreordanation since before the world was and we see that this is the Messiah(the Light of the world) in Genesis 1:3.

    Adam and Ever were not born. They were created. They had no womb or birth or even childhood. So Jesus is the "only begotten" of God.
     
  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes as the Son He is created in the womb. With a human will, mind emotions etc. However He existed beforehand as God. God made Himself a body. GOd cannot die so He must make a man to die for the sins of the world. What better "man" to die for the sins of the world than God Himself? God didn't want to make it so anyone else died for us. He would do it Himself.
    Yes sir. Jesus is here actually at the head of redeemed humanity. All the body of Christ is part of the "Son of man". This is not a distinction between persons. But between God Himself and the human manifestation of God.
    Jesus as the "Son of man" has a God and even Creator. However, He proclaims Himself to be One with the Father. So although He is in human form and therefore distinct He is really One with God.
    That's what I've been trying to say.
    Exactly. God cannot die so He made Himself a human body. Jesus the "Lamb of God" who takes away the sins of the world. We shouldn't think that God would lay this burden on another. He came Himself in the body of a human being. This is the love of God perfected. The wisdom of God Himself is that true love is not in words only but in deeds and in truth. (1 John 3:18) So God desired to actually do something so that His love would be manifest for mankind. This is the true love of God on the cross; the Savior of the world. Just as Adam in a way sacrificed himself for Eve because he did not want to be away from her even though Adam was not deceived and he knew eating the fruit of knowledge would cause his own death. This foreshadowed Jesus who died for the bride.
    Right on. Jesus came through the seed of Adam so that He could redeem Adam(and all His descendants).
    Right you are. Remember that the Word was "with God" This "Word" is the first recorded speaking of God in Genesis. And God said "Let there be Light". However don't forget the second part of John 1:1. The Word (Let there be Light) was with God and the Word(Let there be Light) WAS God.

    This is backed up over and over in the scriptures. The Word became the Son through human birth and through the resurrection from the dead. However He was always meant to be the Son of God since Genesis 1:3 and indeed before the world was.

    In foreordanation and the perfect will of God Jesus was always meant to come a Light into the world. (Genesis 1:3) However there came the time in reality that He actually became what He was already in predestination. The Son of God. This is through His human birth (Luke 1:35) and then the resurrection from the dead. (Revelation 1:5)
     
  14. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    Again You need to understand that Jesus spoke in Parables and Proverbs to illustrate a truth. From John 14:8 statement of if you have seen me you have seen the Father. go to John 16:25 2 chapters later same day. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.


    Did yo see that Show you plainly the Father. Why did he need to clarify his first statement if you ve seen me you've seen that father if it was evident that he was speaking literally. The answer is because it was a proverb to illustrate a truth. Not a literally speaking.

    So what is the meaning of the proverb that Jesus spoke. If you have seen me you have seen the Father.?

    That meaning would be
    Due 18:18-19 Jesus was the ambassador for the Majesty on High. John 5:48 I am come in my Father's name,. Thats an ambassador. What did Due 18:18 Say. I will put my words in his mouth and he will speak all that I command him. Thats an ambassador. John 7:16 My doctrine is not mine but his that sent me Again John 8:28 as my Father has taught me so do I speak and again John 12:49 My father gave me a commandment what I should say and speak.

    All these passage prove that Jesus fulfilled
    Deu 18:18-19.

    Thus If
    you've seem me you've seen the Father. Jesus was Gods Ambassador. An ambassador represents a nation at an assemble. Jesus represented The Majesty on High/ Ambassador fulfilling Deu 18:18-19 Heb 1:3 Jesus is not the Majesty on High. John 20:17 Jesus had a God over him after he resurrected Rev 3:12 When Jesus returned to heaven he had a God over him.

    Jesus is not God. Jesus is Gods only begotten
    creation before there was a world He was a Son John 17:5 1 John 4:9

    Then in
    John 16:28 2 chapters Later same day as John 14:8 he explains very clearly his relationship with the Majesty on High John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    Did you see that Jesus says He did not come from Marys womb but came forth from the Majesty on high before the world was
    John 17:5 and came into the world. Jesus is not God!!!!!!!

    You are blinded by a man made doctrine called oneness. Jesus is God. And many christian claim
    John 14:8 proves that because thats what they have been taught. They dont study for themselves.

    2 chapters later same day Jesus gives definition and interpretation to his statement to Phillipe (if you've sen me you've seen the Father) Jesus existed as Jesus not God before he came to earth by saying
    John 16:27 I came out from God and came into the world.

    You see he did not say he was God but that he came out from God.

    Notice how the Apostles responded
    John 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb

    John 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

    Did you see that. They did not say We believe you are God. They said you came out from God.

    Why did they not say we believe you are God. Because they knew he was not The Majesty on High.

    The Apostles Never claimed that Jesus was God.

    We have one exception where Thomas said My Lord and My God
    John 20:28. But this is easy discredit as proof that Jesus was God.

    1. By the numerous other passages that say otherwise and the most significant rebuttal was by the Apostle who recorded
    John 20:28 and witnessed Thomas saying that

    John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus was God. Right thats what John said Right. Wrong. John says

    John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;

    If there ever was the perfect moment to proclaim Jesus was God It would of been right at this moment .

    But No John had it right Jesus was the Messiah/Christ
    Deu 18:18 Dan 7:13 the Son of God. Not God.

    Heb 1:3 Jesus is not the Majesty on High

    John 20:17 Rev 3:!2 Jesus has a God over him while he is in heaven .

    The oneness Doctrine fails the test of the scriptures.






     
  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you could take that argument and make what Jesus said mean anything you want it to mean. Yes He spoke in similitudes however we can't take away from something so obvious as to what He said in John 14:8-9.

    Jesus is the prophet and speaks the Words of God. However, there is a difference between speaking the Words of God as a messenger like Moses and claiming that when you see me you see God. Moses never claimed such a thing nor would he in the fear of God. This shows us that Jesus is indeed literally God manifest because Jesus informs them that they do not need to see the Father because they have seen the Father.

    But you know they had already seen the Son of God. Yet, He says in John 14:21 that He is going to manifest Himself to them. So, it's about further revelations of God. God gives revelation after revelation.

    He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (John 14:21)

    As a human being the "Son of man" Jesus has a God, a Father and a Creator. I've covered all this previously but you don't want to address some of the points I've made.

    Let's look at the context of John 17:5. In John 17:1 Jesus says the "`Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee, ..."

    So, the appointed hour for Jesus to receive the glory that was with the Father before the world was had finally arrived. This is like when a father has a gift for his child. It is for the child but is not going to given to the child until the right time. That could be their birthday or whatever. Just as, according to Jesus the hour had arrived and He was about to receive that glory which was waiting with the Father since before the world began.

    You can't explain why Jesus needed to pray and ask to receive the glory if (as you claim) He already had the glory since before the world began.

    Of course Jesus came out from the Father. The scriptures show us more than once that God is able to send His Spirit out. Like in Psalm 104:30 " Thou sendest out Thy Spirit, they are created, And Thou renewest the face of the ground." And in John 16:7 we even find that Jesus will send the Comforter(the holy Spirit) to them. This means that God could send His Spirit in the body of the Son into the world. As you know in Hebrews 10:5 we find that the Messiah had a body prepared for Him.

    Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore, coming into the world, he saith, `Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not will, and a body Thou didst prepare for me,

    And in Col. 2:8-9 we find that all the fullness of the Godhead tabernacled in Jesus' bodily.

    Colossians 2:8-9 See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ, because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

    So you see the body is created in the womb, but the Spirit is eternal.
    I have studied the subject.

    Yes, if God can send out His Spirit (Psalm 104:30) and you know a Word proceeds from the mouth; then you know that Jesus(The Word made flesh (John 1:14) saying He comes out from God means that He is God. God Himself is infinite and Omnipresent. To be seen by His creation He must manifest Himself. The Son; Jesus was God manifest in human form. How does God manifest Himself to us? Through His Word. This the Son of God is a revelation of the invisible God in human form.

    He came out from God as He was God. Notice that they said He knew all things. He did not contradict them. Only God knows all things.

    And this reminds me. In Revelation 2:23 it is Jesus who searches the hearts. In the entire old Testament only God does this. Yet you say Jesus is not God? It's not possible as only God knows the heart.

    Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    I disagree. The epistles are full of claims of Jesus' Divinity.

    Let's look at 1 John 3:1-6 for example; where John the writer makes no distinction between the Father and He was manifested in the flesh.

    Not one scripture can be overlooked.

    So you're arguing that He cannot be both the Son and God? You can't limit God.

    As the Son of man Jesus has a God yes. He is the majesty on High as the scripture says He ascended far above all heavens so that He might fill all things. (Ephesians 4:10)

    I'm sorry, but what fails is the "two god" doctrine. There can only be one God for the church. (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6) You say Jesus is not a god but instead a ruler. However John 1:1 calls Him Theos, Isaiah 9:6 calls Him mighty God ... as well as other scriptures.

    So, He is at least "a" god. And therefore you proclaim you have two gods. That cannot be right. There is only one God for the church.
     
  16. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    You still caint see, You see only this. That Jesus the man was predestined by the the father through the prophets to be the messiah/ lamb of God/ Son of God Through the birth of Mary. Thats what you have been claiming through this whole dialog.This is through the lens of Trinitarian and the oneness doctrine.

    Here is what you caint see because of what you believe,

    John 17 :5 with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    1 John 1:2 and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father,
    John 1:1 the Word was with God

    All 3 of these passage share a a significant word. the word WITH. WITH indicates 2 individuals or persons existing at the same time separated from each other before the world was.

    All 3 passages describe a condition prior to the creation of the world. That condition being 2 separate beings.

    Jesus Existed before the world was as the Son of God
    1 John 4:9

    Your saying the glory that Jesus is speaking of in
    John 17:5 is the predestined glory that God had for him before the world was.

    In John
    17:1 The glory Jesus is speaking of is his Resurrection. The Resurrection vindicated Jesus and proved he was who he claimed he was the Son of God John 10:36.

    In
    John 17:5 The Glory Jesus is speaking of is his status with the Majesty on High before the worlds were created.
    For he says I had with you.

    That word Had is past tense as in already experiences, not futuristic as in going to experience.

    This is where you are misinterpreting. Follow the English language.

    Jesus the creator existed as Jesus the created before the world was created by him
    Heb 1:2 That creator logistically returned to the Majesty on highs right hand after his mission was accomplished on earth.

    Heb 1:4 Portrays the creator of all that we see Heb 1:2 subordinate to a high being . The Majesty on High His Father.

    Heb 1:3 Jesus the creator is not the Majesty on High.

    This is where we differ!!!!





     
  17. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    You misunderstand I Dont believe there are 2 Gods. All the passages I've been elaborating on all point to the one Majesty on High of whom are all things and by whom are all things. Heb 2:10

    Jesus is not a God as in another Majesty on High. There is only one Majesty on high. Period.

    That Majesty on High spoke Jesus into existence
    Rev 3:14 John 1:1 1 john 1:1 .

    He became the first only creation of the Majesty on high the Son of God before the world was
    Heb 1:5 Pslm 2:7.

    Preeminence
    Col 1:18 was bestowed upon that first one and only creation of God in as much the only Majesty on high Isa 46:9 Deu 32:39 Gave that first and only creation of the Majesty on high the authority to create the worlds at The Majesty on Highs commands. Heb 1:2 col 1:16 John 1:3

    That first one and only creation of the Majesty on high was
    appointed an inheritance Heb 1:2 Appointed means he did not have authority to have unless someone superior to him Gave it to him.

    That
    inheritance was to be King of Kings and Lord of Lord. Rev 17:14 Dan 7:13-14 Jer 23:5 Isa 2 Isa 9:6

    So far all the passage Ive mentioned all take place before the world was. Isa 46:10. God knows the end from the beginning. That means everything was planned before it ever happened. All the prophecies were already written in the mind of God even before The first and only creation of God Jesus was spoken into existence. And before they were conveyed to the prophets to be written down.

    Bottom line there are no 2 Gods. Only one Majesty on High. The Almighty. Rev 21:22 . Who spoke John 1:1 John 16:28 1 john 1:1 Jesus the only first creation of the Majesty on high into existence who is an obedient creation of the Majesty on High before the world was

    Whom Just like Joseph in
    which Pharaoh who was the supreme ruler of Egypt in Josephs day gave full command of Pharaohs kingdom Gen 41:40-44 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled:

    Only in the throne will I be greater than thou. Gen 41:40

    See that there only in the throne will I be greater than You. Thats Just the same as
    Heb 1;3 The creator of the world has a superior that is in the throne greater than Jesus who created the world at the Majesty on highs command.

    That first and only creation of the Majesty on high before the world was was made a ruler over all the earth. Just Like Pharaoh made Joseph ruler over all his kingdom.
    Rev 17:14 Dan 7:13-14 Jer 23:5 Isa 2 Isa 9:6

    Joseph and Pharaoh are a perfect old testament type/picture of the relationship that Jesus has with his Father.

    2 Beings. Not 2 Majesties on Highs.

    1 Majesty on High and One appointed Lord to rule the Majesty on highs Kingdom. Just like Pharaoh and Joseph.

    So you know now that I do not believe in 2 Gods



     
    #77 Apologetics, Apr 20, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  18. Apologetics

    Apologetics Member

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    Your misinterpreting the context of John 16:25. It was Jesus not me that said he spoke in proverbs/ figures of speech. You need to go back and read without prejudice. Jesus said he was speaking to Phil and the rest of the disciples in John 14:8-9 in proverbs/figures of speech.

    He did this allot.Like, destroy this temple and I will build it again in 3 days. But the Writters said
    John 2:19 this spoke he of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

    Read all these

    Many times its says they understood not
    Mar 9:32 Luke 2:50 luke 9:45 John 8:27 John 10:6

    John 12:16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

    Phil did not understand what Jesus had said In J
    ohn 14:8-9.

    Jesus knowing Phillip and his disciples did not understand gave explanation of John 14:8-9 like he so often did with his parable to his disciples when they were alone.

    Saying I will no longer speak to you in proverbs/figures of speech but will plainly(clearly )show you( explain to you) the Father.

    I came out from God.( Not I am God) Notice he did not repeat If you've seen me youve seen the Father ( Because thats the proverb/Figure of speech)

    Again I came forth from the Father ( Jesus spoken into Existence) and have come into the world Eph 3:11 ( His purpose for existing)

    Dan 9:25 ( Messiah John 5:43 I am come in my fathers name, Ambassador.Representing his Father

    Just Like Joseph represented Pharaoh
    Gen 41:40-45

    Bottom line! There are no 2 Majesties on High. There is only one The Almighty. And One created appointed Ruler the first and only creation of the Majesty on high to be King of Kings and Lord of Lords for 1000 years.Jesus the first and only created Son of God









     
    #78 Apologetics, Apr 21, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I do see it trust me. I've encountered similar beliefs before. However, I'm trying to share revelation. No offense ...
    1. Keeping John 17:5 in context is the way to understand. There we find that the glory is revealed in the hour Jesus prays to receive it. If Jesus already had it then He need not pray for it. However, it was with the Father waiting for that very hour from the beginning. Which is the glorification of the Son of man through resurrection and ascension. You know all creation is through the Son.
    2. Jesus in human form is the eternal Life that was with the Father. Jesus is the bread of Life that came down. It's only through the death of His body that we receive this eternal Life. If there was already eternal Life then we don't need Jesus to die. He died in vain. However we know that He bled for our forgiveness. Now we're witnessing to those who will hear that there is eternal Life in Jesus Christ.
    3. In John 1:1 the writer was careful to say first that the Word was with God but then also to say that the Word was God. There is no other God but One. Jesus is the Light of Genesis 1:3 and we see that the Light was "separated from the darkness". In other words the Word was "with" the Father. That is He was set apart for the time of His revealing in the world. Jesus is the Light of the world.
    Jesus sits on the Right hand of power for the purpose of subduing all His enemies under His human feet. How could Jesus have enemies before He came down? Jesus was and is and always will be. However there came a time when He did what was written of Him and ordained before the world was. I can't show you. Only God can show you. As I said it's revelation and this is only revealed by God.

    Hebrews 1:2 says that God made the "worlds" (KJV) by Jesus. This means through Jesus God made the worlds. This is as I've told you the Light of Genesis 1:3. All creation was made in 7 days in the Light of Genesis 1:3. The "worlds" is probably better translated as "ages". In other words the ages of the world were created through Jesus. The whole of all the ages of the world are set forth beforehand in the 7 days of creation and are finished on the 7th.

    In Hebrew the creation account is literally present tense rather than past tense. So it really says "In the beginning God creates the heavens and earth" Instead of "created" which is past tense. God's not finished and that's my whole point because on the 7th day God rests from all His work. God is still working and building the new Jerusalem ...

    All of God's creation is divided into the first and the last. That which comes first is done away as it is written that the elements will melt with a fervent heat and the heavens will be rolled together as a scroll. But God says "Behold, I make all things new" and of Jerusalem He says "But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

    This is why we know Jesus is God manifest in human form. Because He comes to restore mankind to the untarnished image of God. As God was speaking to someone else in Genesis 1:26. "Let us make man in our image ..." This is commonly misunderstood by many people for different reasons. Some say it is the trinity talking to themselves. Others say it is a "royal we" and there are other explanations. But the truth is God is speaking through the ages to the Son of man. The Messiah. Yes this was said to Jesus who makes us again into the image of God because we have gone astray. See 2 Corinthians 3:18. So if Jesus is the One God spoke to saying as to an equal "Let us make man in our image ..." then it proves Jesus the Son is God manifest.

    Hebrews 1:3 does not say Jesus is not the Majesty on High. Only that Jesus is the Son of man. You don't want to admit He can be both.

    Hebrews 1:4 is about the body of Jesus made in the womb of Mary. (see Hebrews 10:5) You're misunderstanding it to be about something else.
     
  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is Lord you know that. So you say you have two masters. Jesus said of God "Him only shalt thou serve" and Jesus said "One is your Master even Christ". So there is One God and Lord and Master of the church.

    You do obeisance to two kings rather than one. As you know Jesus is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

    1 Timothy 6:14-16 seems to indicate it is God who is the King of kings and Lord of lords. It seems to indicate that it is Jesus who will show God. In other words Jesus is the invisible God manifest.

    1 Timothy 6:14-16
    14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


    I believe you're sincere. I'm being rhetorical when I say you have 2 Gods. Not being personal. I think we agree on a lot but have disagreements about how these things were "before the world was". However, I agree that the Father is greater than the Son as Jesus said "My Father is greater than I". And yes this is foreshadowed in Gen 41:40. However, that doesn't mean the Father and Son are separate persons. That is not right. The Son is the Father manifest as I've been saying the whole time. He must reign in (glorified) human form. This is so He can subdue all our enemies for us. Once this is accomplished as it is written He will deliver the kingdom up to the Father so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:24) The Son of man's work will finally be accomplished. That doesn't mean He'll go away, but His work will be done and God will be all in all.

    People like you have a difficult time explaining how God the All powerful, Almighty took "power" to Himself and reigned when He was already the King of heaven and earth. We on the other hand know He did so in the Son of man Jesus Christ who is God manifest and said "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

    Revelation 11:17
    Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
     
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