gain You need to understand that Jesus spoke in Parables and Proverbs to illustrate a truth. From John 14:8 statement of if you have seen me you have seen the Father. go to John 16:25 2 chapters later same day. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Well, you could take that argument and make what Jesus said mean anything you want it to mean. Yes He spoke in similitudes however we can't take away from something so obvious as to what He said in John 14:8-9.
So what is the meaning of the proverb that Jesus spoke. If you have seen me you have seen the Father.?
That meaning would be Due 18:18-19 Jesus was the ambassador for the Majesty on High. John 5:48 I am come in my Father's name,. Thats an ambassador. What did Due 18:18 Say. I will put my words in his mouth and he will speak all that I command him. Thats an ambassador. John 7:16 My doctrine is not mine but his that sent me Again John 8:28 as my Father has taught me so do I speak and again John 12:49 My father gave me a commandment what I should say and speak.
All these passage prove that Jesus fulfilled Deu 18:18-19.
Jesus is the prophet and speaks the Words of God. However, there is a difference between speaking the Words of God as a messenger like Moses and claiming that when you see me you see God. Moses never claimed such a thing nor would he in the fear of God. This shows us that Jesus is indeed literally God manifest because Jesus informs them that they do not need to see the Father because they have seen the Father.
Did yo see that Show you plainly the Father. Why did he need to clarify his first statement if you ve seen me you've seen that father if it was evident that he was speaking literally. The answer is because it was a proverb to illustrate a truth. Not a literally speaking.
But you know they had already seen the Son of God. Yet, He says in John 14:21 that He is going to manifest Himself to them. So, it's about further revelations of God. God gives revelation after revelation.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (John 14:21)
Jesus is not the Majesty on High. John 20:17 Jesus had a God over him after he resurrected Rev 3:12 When Jesus returned to heaven he had a God over him.
As a human being the "Son of man" Jesus has a God, a Father and a Creator. I've covered all this previously but you don't want to address some of the points I've made.
Jesus is not God. Jesus is Gods only begotten creation before there was a world He was a Son John 17:5 1 John 4:9
Let's look at the context of John 17:5. In John 17:1 Jesus says the "`Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee, ..."
So, the appointed hour for Jesus to receive the glory that was with the Father before the world was had finally arrived. This is like when a father has a gift for his child. It is for the child but is not going to given to the child until the right time. That could be their birthday or whatever. Just as, according to Jesus the hour had arrived and He was about to receive that glory which was waiting with the Father since before the world began.
You can't explain why Jesus needed to pray and ask to receive the glory if (as you claim) He already had the glory since before the world began.
Then in John 16:28 2 chapters Later same day as John 14:8 he explains very clearly his relationship with the Majesty on High John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Did you see that Jesus says He did not come from Marys womb but came forth from the Majesty on high before the world was John 17:5 and came into the world. Jesus is not God!!!!!!!
Of course Jesus came out from the Father. The scriptures show us more than once that God is able to send His Spirit out. Like in Psalm 104:30 " Thou sendest out Thy Spirit, they are created, And Thou renewest the face of the ground." And in John 16:7 we even find that Jesus will send the Comforter(the holy Spirit) to them. This means that God could send His Spirit in the body of the Son into the world. As you know in Hebrews 10:5 we find that the Messiah had a body prepared for Him.
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore, coming into the world, he saith, `Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not will, and a body Thou didst prepare for me,
And in Col. 2:8-9 we find that all the fullness of the Godhead tabernacled in Jesus' bodily.
Colossians 2:8-9 See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ, because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
So you see the body is created in the womb, but the Spirit is eternal.
You are blinded by a man made doctrine called oneness. Jesus is God. And many christian claim John 14:8 proves that because thats what they have been taught. They dont study for themselves.
I have studied the subject.
2 chapters later same day Jesus gives definition and interpretation to his statement to Phillipe (if you've sen me you've seen the Father) Jesus existed as Jesus not God before he came to earth by saying John 16:27 I came out from God and came into the world.
You see he did not say he was God but that he came out from God.
Yes, if God can send out His Spirit (Psalm 104:30) and you know a Word proceeds from the mouth; then you know that Jesus(The Word made flesh (John 1:14) saying He comes out from God means that He is God. God Himself is infinite and Omnipresent. To be seen by His creation He must manifest Himself. The Son; Jesus was God manifest in human form. How does God manifest Himself to us? Through His Word. This the Son of God is a revelation of the invisible God in human form.
You see he did not say he was God but that he came out from God.
Notice how the Apostles responded John 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb
John 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Did you see that. They did not say We believe you are God. They said you came out from God.
Why did they not say we believe you are God. Because they knew he was not The Majesty on High.
He came out from God as He was God. Notice that they said He knew all things. He did not contradict them. Only God knows all things.
And this reminds me. In Revelation 2:23 it is Jesus who searches the hearts. In the entire old Testament only God does this. Yet you say Jesus is not God? It's not possible as only God knows the heart.
Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
The Apostles Never claimed that Jesus was God.
I disagree. The epistles are full of claims of Jesus' Divinity.
Let's look at 1 John 3:1-6 for example; where John the writer makes no distinction between the Father and He was manifested in the flesh.
We have one exception where Thomas said My Lord and My God John 20:28. But this is easy discredit as proof that Jesus was God.
Not one scripture can be overlooked.
1. By the numerous other passages that say otherwise and the most significant rebuttal was by the Apostle who recorded John 20:28 and witnessed Thomas saying that
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus was God. Right thats what John said Right. Wrong. John says
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
If there ever was the perfect moment to proclaim Jesus was God It would of been right at this moment .
So you're arguing that He cannot be both the Son and God? You can't limit God.
But No John had it right Jesus was the Messiah/Christ Deu 18:18 Dan 7:13 the Son of God. Not God.
Heb 1:3 Jesus is not the Majesty on High
John 20:17 Rev 3:!2 Jesus has a God over him while he is in heaven .
As the Son of man Jesus has a God yes. He is the majesty on High as the scripture says He ascended far above all heavens so that He might fill all things. (Ephesians 4:10)
The oneness Doctrine fails the test of the scriptures.
I'm sorry, but what fails is the "two god" doctrine. There can only be one God for the church. (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6) You say Jesus is not a god but instead a ruler. However John 1:1 calls Him Theos, Isaiah 9:6 calls Him mighty God ... as well as other scriptures.
So, He is at least "a" god. And therefore you proclaim you have two gods. That cannot be right. There is only one God for the church.