Is Jesus really God Or Gods created Son?

[Apologetics]

​

Religious debates


There are some obvious glaring problems from a scriptural standpoint with the predominant teaching that Jesus Is God or as they say God the Son the second person in the trinity. The Most obvious passage would Be John 20:17 I ascend unto to My God and Your God. Clearly irrefutable, that Jesus confesses that He has a God over him for he says My God. Again Rev 3:12 Temple of my God. The Apostle Paul Clearly teaches the same Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ Again Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Again 1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul and Peter acknowledge and taught that Jesus has a God over him. A God he worships for he confessed to Satan that he worships and serves his God and only him. Mat 4:10


Now the trinity doctrine declares that 3 beings in one God are equal in authority and counsel and power.

According to these passages Jesus has a God over him that he worships making him subordinate not equal.


Furthermore


Hebrew Chapter 1 God who at different times and in different manors spoke in times past unto the fathers by the prophets whom he has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son. Whom he as appointed heir of all things.By whom also he made the worlds.


Now, the writer one of the real founding Fathers, portrays the Jesus he knows as subordinate to a superior for he says, Jesus was appointed heir of all things.This is consistent with what Jesus said repeatedly, my father sent me John 4:34. One who is sent is in a subordinate position to a superior.For Jesus says I came not to do my own will. John 6:38 One who is appointed is receiving a possession or a position in which he has no authority to have unless one superior to him appoints it to him. He also declares the Jesus he knows, whom he portrays in a subordinate role to a superior being as the means by which the superior being created the worlds. Paul teaching this as well Eph 3:9 The phrasing of this passage appointed heir of all things leaves the trinity teaching of 3 equal beings in one God without a foundation. For one appointed is not equal to the appointee.


Now, What Jesus is inheriting from the superior being is mentioned in Dan 7:13-14. A kingdom that will never be destroyed. In this passage as well, Jesus is portrayed by Daniel as being subordinate to a superior and receiving something in which he had no authority to have unless given by one superior to him. Again demolishing the trinity theory of 3 equal beings in one God.One subordinate is not equal to his superior.


Who being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person. Who upholds all things by the word of his power, who by himself purged our sins and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.


In this place sits down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb 1:3 Right here, the writer, a founding Father portrays the Jesus he knows, whom he declares as the creator, positioned in a place of honor, which is what at the right hand means, but yet subordinate to a superior being. For he says at the right hand of the Majesty on High. This being consistent with my Father is greater than I John 14:28


So the writer, a founding father does not portray the creator of the world as being the Majesty on High. But the Majesty on High being superior to the creator.

The creator in a subordinate role.Again demolishing the trinity theory of 3 equal beings in one God.For one who is the Majesty on High is greater than all.


Being made so much better than the angels as he has by inheritance obtained a more precious name than they. Heb 1:4

The writer , a founding Father portrays the Jesus he knows as being created by the Majesty on high. The word made means to bring into existence ,which is what begotten also refers to. Being created. John 1:13 Heb 1:6 Rev 3:14


The writer gives a reason why Jesus was better( or above ) than the angels but yet lesser than the Majesty on high. That reason was as he says by inheritance Heb 1:4 obtained a more precious name than they. This word inheritance signifying Jesus as an offspring of the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 The God who sent his Son to speak for him Heb 1:1 Due 18:18 Jesus being the only begotten son of God. For he says To which of the angels did he say you are my Son this day I have begotten you. Heb 1:5 The answer to the question of Heb 1:5 is none of the angels did God say your my Son this day I have begotten you. The angels do not receive the inheritance that Jesus receives from the Majesty on High. Which is an everlasting Kingdom Dan 7:13-14 For he is the only heir. The only begotten John 1:14 Heb 1:6 Subordinated to the Majesty on high,who was begotten before the world was, existing before the world was John 17:5 and 1 John 4:9 Superior to the angels because the Majesty on high created him and only him, making him the only heir. Col 1:18 Col 3:10 Rev 3:14 John 1:1 Heb 1:4 Thus the term only begotten of the father. John 1:14. Making Jesus the first thing the Majesty on High directly created and the lasting thing he directly created. Thus the term the first and the last. If you are the first of something and the last of something that makes you the only thing. Thus the term the first and the last is a figure of speech that demonstrates a singular position of only, none else


John 1:1 Is consistent with the views of the Hebrew writer in regards to Jesus relationship to the Majesty on high. For he says In the beginning John 1:1 The word beginning literally means the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader. In as much as Jesus portrays Satan as the first to be a murderer. John 8:44 Same Greek word as John 1:1 This is consistent with what the Hebrew writer says being made( Come into existence, first in a series) Heb 1:4 Then he says was the word. John portrays the word as having a beginning or coming into existence.The majesty on high has no beginning. But the word has a beginning. And the term only John 1:14 is consistent with the term beginning John 1:1. For only means unique one of a kind, first in a series and that certainly is consistent with the Hebrew writers view for he says being made better than the angels has he has by inheritance obtained a more precious name than they. Heb 1:4 Since none of the angels were declared to be a begotten Son of God Heb 1:5 and none of the angel were told to sit at the right hand majesty on high, the Hebrew writer demonstrates the exclusive unique privileged relationship Jesus had with the Majesty on high. Above the angels but subordinate to the Majesty on high.

Thus the term only ,unique, one of a kind


Back to John 1:1

John teaches the word had a beginning.John 1:1 John also teaches Jesus was from the beginning ( first in a series.)1 John 1:1 John also teaches that Jesus was the word of God Rev 19:13. The Hebrew writer teaches that Jesus the word of God was not the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 and was subordinate to the Majesty on high and was made Heb 1:4 ,receiving that which he had no authority to have.Heb 1:2


I ask you this question. Where do words come from? The answer is a mouth.They are spoken. John 1:1 In the beginning was a literal word. That literal word came out of the mouth of the Majesty on high. As Rev 19:13 says word of God same as Word from God. That literal word was spoken into existence. Thus God was the word John 1:1 A literal word in God's Mouth. You might be saying write now, no it says the word was God. If you do some research on when they translated into English they switched it around thinking it sounded better without changing the meaning. The original Greek says God was the word.


Now Just as Genesis says let there be light. And it was so. Let there be fowls in the air and it was so and Let there be fish and it was so and let there be stars and it was so.

So likewise the Majesty on high spoke and Jesus came into existence.God His Father having a the plan of salvation already devised for His only begotten Son, His first and last direct creation to execute 2 Tim 1:9 1 Pet 1:20

The only begotten of the Father

Col 1:18 Col 3:10 Rev 3:14 John 1:1 Heb 1:4

Then Jesus God's Only Begotten Son created everything else
​

Heb 1:2 Eph 3:9 Col 1:16 John 1:3​

 

[socharlie]

Religious debates


There are some obvious glaring problems from a scriptural standpoint with the predominant teaching that Jesus Is God or as they say God the Son the second person in the trinity. The Most obvious passage would Be John 20:17 I ascend unto to My God and Your God. Clearly irrefutable, that Jesus confesses that He has a God over him for he says My God. Again Rev 3:12 Temple of my God. The Apostle Paul Clearly teaches the same Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ Again Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Again 1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul and Peter acknowledge and taught that Jesus has a God over him. A God he worships for he confessed to Satan that he worships and serves his God and only him. Mat 4:10


Now the trinity doctrine declares that 3 beings in one God are equal in authority and counsel and power.

According to these passages Jesus has a God over him that he worships making him subordinate not equal.


Furthermore


Hebrew Chapter 1 God who at different times and in different manors spoke in times past unto the fathers by the prophets whom he has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son. Whom he as appointed heir of all things.By whom also he made the worlds.


Now, the writer one of the real founding Fathers, portrays the Jesus he knows as subordinate to a superior for he says, Jesus was appointed heir of all things.This is consistent with what Jesus said repeatedly, my father sent me John 4:34. One who is sent is in a subordinate position to a superior.For Jesus says I came not to do my own will. John 6:38 One who is appointed is receiving a possession or a position in which he has no authority to have unless one superior to him appoints it to him. He also declares the Jesus he knows, whom he portrays in a subordinate role to a superior being as the means by which the superior being created the worlds. Paul teaching this as well Eph 3:9 The phrasing of this passage appointed heir of all things leaves the trinity teaching of 3 equal beings in one God without a foundation. For one appointed is not equal to the appointee.


Now, What Jesus is inheriting from the superior being is mentioned in Dan 7:13-14. A kingdom that will never be destroyed. In this passage as well, Jesus is portrayed by Daniel as being subordinate to a superior and receiving something in which he had no authority to have unless given by one superior to him. Again demolishing the trinity theory of 3 equal beings in one God.One subordinate is not equal to his superior.


Who being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person. Who upholds all things by the word of his power, who by himself purged our sins and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.


In this place sits down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb 1:3 Right here, the writer, a founding Father portrays the Jesus he knows, whom he declares as the creator, positioned in a place of honor, which is what at the right hand means, but yet subordinate to a superior being. For he says at the right hand of the Majesty on High. This being consistent with my Father is greater than I John 14:28


So the writer, a founding father does not portray the creator of the world as being the Majesty on High. But the Majesty on High being superior to the creator.

The creator in a subordinate role.Again demolishing the trinity theory of 3 equal beings in one God.For one who is the Majesty on High is greater than all.


Being made so much better than the angels as he has by inheritance obtained a more precious name than they. Heb 1:4

The writer , a founding Father portrays the Jesus he knows as being created by the Majesty on high. The word made means to bring into existence ,which is what begotten also refers to. Being created. John 1:13 Heb 1:6 Rev 3:14


The writer gives a reason why Jesus was better( or above ) than the angels but yet lesser than the Majesty on high. That reason was as he says by inheritance Heb 1:4 obtained a more precious name than they. This word inheritance signifying Jesus as an offspring of the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 The God who sent his Son to speak for him Heb 1:1 Due 18:18 Jesus being the only begotten son of God. For he says To which of the angels did he say you are my Son this day I have begotten you. Heb 1:5 The answer to the question of Heb 1:5 is none of the angels did God say your my Son this day I have begotten you. The angels do not receive the inheritance that Jesus receives from the Majesty on High. Which is an everlasting Kingdom Dan 7:13-14 For he is the only heir. The only begotten John 1:14 Heb 1:6 Subordinated to the Majesty on high,who was begotten before the world was, existing before the world was John 17:5 and 1 John 4:9 Superior to the angels because the Majesty on high created him and only him, making him the only heir. Col 1:18 Col 3:10 Rev 3:14 John 1:1 Heb 1:4 Thus the term only begotten of the father. John 1:14. Making Jesus the first thing the Majesty on High directly created and the lasting thing he directly created. Thus the term the first and the last. If you are the first of something and the last of something that makes you the only thing. Thus the term the first and the last is a figure of speech that demonstrates a singular position of only, none else


John 1:1 Is consistent with the views of the Hebrew writer in regards to Jesus relationship to the Majesty on high. For he says In the beginning John 1:1 The word beginning literally means the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader. In as much as Jesus portrays Satan as the first to be a murderer. John 8:44 Same Greek word as John 1:1 This is consistent with what the Hebrew writer says being made( Come into existence, first in a series) Heb 1:4 Then he says was the word. John portrays the word as having a beginning or coming into existence.The majesty on high has no beginning. But the word has a beginning. And the term only John 1:14 is consistent with the term beginning John 1:1. For only means unique one of a kind, first in a series and that certainly is consistent with the Hebrew writers view for he says being made better than the angels has he has by inheritance obtained a more precious name than they. Heb 1:4 Since none of the angels were declared to be a begotten Son of God Heb 1:5 and none of the angel were told to sit at the right hand majesty on high, the Hebrew writer demonstrates the exclusive unique privileged relationship Jesus had with the Majesty on high. Above the angels but subordinate to the Majesty on high.

Thus the term only ,unique, one of a kind


Back to John 1:1

John teaches the word had a beginning.John 1:1 John also teaches Jesus was from the beginning ( first in a series.)1 John 1:1 John also teaches that Jesus was the word of God Rev 19:13. The Hebrew writer teaches that Jesus the word of God was not the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 and was subordinate to the Majesty on high and was made Heb 1:4 ,receiving that which he had no authority to have.Heb 1:2


I ask you this question. Where do words come from? The answer is a mouth.They are spoken. John 1:1 In the beginning was a literal word. That literal word came out of the mouth of the Majesty on high. As Rev 19:13 says word of God same as Word from God. That literal word was spoken into existence. Thus God was the word John 1:1 A literal word in God's Mouth. You might be saying write now, no it says the word was God. If you do some research on when they translated into English they switched it around thinking it sounded better without changing the meaning. The original Greek says God was the word.


Now Just as Genesis says let there be light. And it was so. Let there be fowls in the air and it was so and Let there be fish and it was so and let there be stars and it was so.

So likewise the Majesty on high spoke and Jesus came into existence.God His Father having a the plan of salvation already devised for His only begotten Son, His first and last direct creation to execute 2 Tim 1:9 1 Pet 1:20

The only begotten of the Father

Col 1:18 Col 3:10 Rev 3:14 John 1:1 Heb 1:4

Then Jesus God's Only Begotten Son created everything else

Heb 1:2 Eph 3:9 Col 1:16 John 1:3​

Jesus is man Christ is Godlike (High Spiritual Being) Aeon.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Religious debates


There are some obvious glaring problems from a scriptural standpoint with the predominant teaching that Jesus Is God or as they say God the Son the second person in the trinity. The Most obvious passage would Be John 20:17 I ascend unto to My God and Your God. Clearly irrefutable, that Jesus confesses that He has a God over him for he says My God. Again Rev 3:12 Temple of my God. The Apostle Paul Clearly teaches the same Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ Again Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Again 1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul and Peter acknowledge and taught that Jesus has a God over him. A God he worships for he confessed to Satan that he worships and serves his God and only him. Mat 4:10


Now the trinity doctrine declares that 3 beings in one God are equal in authority and counsel and power.

According to these passages Jesus has a God over him that he worships making him subordinate not equal.


Furthermore


Hebrew Chapter 1 God who at different times and in different manors spoke in times past unto the fathers by the prophets whom he has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son. Whom he as appointed heir of all things.By whom also he made the worlds.


Now, the writer one of the real founding Fathers, portrays the Jesus he knows as subordinate to a superior for he says, Jesus was appointed heir of all things.This is consistent with what Jesus said repeatedly, my father sent me John 4:34. One who is sent is in a subordinate position to a superior.For Jesus says I came not to do my own will. John 6:38 One who is appointed is receiving a possession or a position in which he has no authority to have unless one superior to him appoints it to him. He also declares the Jesus he knows, whom he portrays in a subordinate role to a superior being as the means by which the superior being created the worlds. Paul teaching this as well Eph 3:9 The phrasing of this passage appointed heir of all things leaves the trinity teaching of 3 equal beings in one God without a foundation. For one appointed is not equal to the appointee.


Now, What Jesus is inheriting from the superior being is mentioned in Dan 7:13-14. A kingdom that will never be destroyed. In this passage as well, Jesus is portrayed by Daniel as being subordinate to a superior and receiving something in which he had no authority to have unless given by one superior to him. Again demolishing the trinity theory of 3 equal beings in one God.One subordinate is not equal to his superior.


Who being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person. Who upholds all things by the word of his power, who by himself purged our sins and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.


In this place sits down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb 1:3 Right here, the writer, a founding Father portrays the Jesus he knows, whom he declares as the creator, positioned in a place of honor, which is what at the right hand means, but yet subordinate to a superior being. For he says at the right hand of the Majesty on High. This being consistent with my Father is greater than I John 14:28


So the writer, a founding father does not portray the creator of the world as being the Majesty on High. But the Majesty on High being superior to the creator.

The creator in a subordinate role.Again demolishing the trinity theory of 3 equal beings in one God.For one who is the Majesty on High is greater than all.


Being made so much better than the angels as he has by inheritance obtained a more precious name than they. Heb 1:4

The writer , a founding Father portrays the Jesus he knows as being created by the Majesty on high. The word made means to bring into existence ,which is what begotten also refers to. Being created. John 1:13 Heb 1:6 Rev 3:14


The writer gives a reason why Jesus was better( or above ) than the angels but yet lesser than the Majesty on high. That reason was as he says by inheritance Heb 1:4 obtained a more precious name than they. This word inheritance signifying Jesus as an offspring of the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 The God who sent his Son to speak for him Heb 1:1 Due 18:18 Jesus being the only begotten son of God. For he says To which of the angels did he say you are my Son this day I have begotten you. Heb 1:5 The answer to the question of Heb 1:5 is none of the angels did God say your my Son this day I have begotten you. The angels do not receive the inheritance that Jesus receives from the Majesty on High. Which is an everlasting Kingdom Dan 7:13-14 For he is the only heir. The only begotten John 1:14 Heb 1:6 Subordinated to the Majesty on high,who was begotten before the world was, existing before the world was John 17:5 and 1 John 4:9 Superior to the angels because the Majesty on high created him and only him, making him the only heir. Col 1:18 Col 3:10 Rev 3:14 John 1:1 Heb 1:4 Thus the term only begotten of the father. John 1:14. Making Jesus the first thing the Majesty on High directly created and the lasting thing he directly created. Thus the term the first and the last. If you are the first of something and the last of something that makes you the only thing. Thus the term the first and the last is a figure of speech that demonstrates a singular position of only, none else


John 1:1 Is consistent with the views of the Hebrew writer in regards to Jesus relationship to the Majesty on high. For he says In the beginning John 1:1 The word beginning literally means the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader. In as much as Jesus portrays Satan as the first to be a murderer. John 8:44 Same Greek word as John 1:1 This is consistent with what the Hebrew writer says being made( Come into existence, first in a series) Heb 1:4 Then he says was the word. John portrays the word as having a beginning or coming into existence.The majesty on high has no beginning. But the word has a beginning. And the term only John 1:14 is consistent with the term beginning John 1:1. For only means unique one of a kind, first in a series and that certainly is consistent with the Hebrew writers view for he says being made better than the angels has he has by inheritance obtained a more precious name than they. Heb 1:4 Since none of the angels were declared to be a begotten Son of God Heb 1:5 and none of the angel were told to sit at the right hand majesty on high, the Hebrew writer demonstrates the exclusive unique privileged relationship Jesus had with the Majesty on high. Above the angels but subordinate to the Majesty on high.

Thus the term only ,unique, one of a kind


Back to John 1:1

John teaches the word had a beginning.John 1:1 John also teaches Jesus was from the beginning ( first in a series.)1 John 1:1 John also teaches that Jesus was the word of God Rev 19:13. The Hebrew writer teaches that Jesus the word of God was not the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 and was subordinate to the Majesty on high and was made Heb 1:4 ,receiving that which he had no authority to have.Heb 1:2


I ask you this question. Where do words come from? The answer is a mouth.They are spoken. John 1:1 In the beginning was a literal word. That literal word came out of the mouth of the Majesty on high. As Rev 19:13 says word of God same as Word from God. That literal word was spoken into existence. Thus God was the word John 1:1 A literal word in God's Mouth. You might be saying write now, no it says the word was God. If you do some research on when they translated into English they switched it around thinking it sounded better without changing the meaning. The original Greek says God was the word.


Now Just as Genesis says let there be light. And it was so. Let there be fowls in the air and it was so and Let there be fish and it was so and let there be stars and it was so.

So likewise the Majesty on high spoke and Jesus came into existence.God His Father having a the plan of salvation already devised for His only begotten Son, His first and last direct creation to execute 2 Tim 1:9 1 Pet 1:20

The only begotten of the Father

Col 1:18 Col 3:10 Rev 3:14 John 1:1 Heb 1:4

Then Jesus God's Only Begotten Son created everything else

Heb 1:2 Eph 3:9 Col 1:16 John 1:3​

Good job, you used a lot of Scriptures.

You might like this about John 1:1.....

"
John J. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317."

(John McKenzie was a highly respected Biblical scholar and Roman Catholic priest, who was himself a trinitarian, but realized John 1:1 could not be used to support the doctrine.)

 

[Estro Felino]

John J. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317."

(John McKenzie was a highly respected Biblical scholar and Roman Catholic priest, who was himself a trinitarian, but realized John 1:1 could not be used to support the doctrine.)

In my opinion this passage is irrelevant, because the original phrase is clearly structured in order to define what God is, and not to define what the word (or Logos) is.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
the translation would be something like this: In the beginning there was the Logos, and the Logos existed within (or at) God. And God was the Logos.

Θεὸς= subject
ἦν = copula
ὁ Λόγος= predicative nominal


MacKenzie is very wrong...because John uses both Θεὸς and ὁ Θεὸς to indicate God in that very same chapter. Besides, what MacKenzie implies, can be expressed with "καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν θεῖος"

 

[Apologetics]

In my opinion this passage is irrelevant, because the original phrase is clearly structured in order to define what God is, and not to define what the word (or Logos) is.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
Honestly I've never seen the subject after the predicative nominal in Greek (or the predicative adjective), so the translation would be something like this: In the beginning there was the Logos, and the Logos existed within (or at) God. And God was the Logos.

Θεὸς= subject
ἦν = copula
ὁ Λόγος= predicative nominal


This MacKenzie is very wrong...because John uses both
Θεὸς and ὁ Θεὸς to indicate God in that very same passage.

What do you mean by this (In my opinion this passage is irrelevant, because the original phrase is clearly structured in order to define what God is, and not to define what the word (or Logos) is.)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

In my opinion this passage is irrelevant, because the original phrase is clearly structured in order to define what God is, and not to define what the word (or Logos) is.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
Honestly I've never seen the subject after the predicative nominal in Greek (or the predicative adjective), so the translation would be something like this: In the beginning there was the Logos, and the Logos existed within (or at) God. And God was the Logos.

Θεὸς= subject
ἦν = copula
ὁ Λόγος= predicative nominal


This MacKenzie is very wrong...because John uses both
Θεὸς and ὁ Θεὸς to indicate God in that very same passage.

No...it's all one sentence, and "the word" is established as the subject, whereas "god" in the second usage (without the definite article) is a predicate noun.

In his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” Philip B. Harner said that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the natureof theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Thus, in this text, the factthat the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17, they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”

Because of this, we have other translations' renderings:

1808
““and the word was a god””
The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864
““and a god was the Word””
The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935
““and the Word was divine””
The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1950
““and the Word was a god””
New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn.

1975
““and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany.

1978
““and godlike sort was the Logos””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

1979
““and a god was the Logos””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.

Besides, which understanding (of John 1:1) actually agrees with the context? John 1:14 clearly says that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . . we have beheld his glory.” But then, a few verses later, John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God.” Furthermore, verses 1 & 2 say that in the beginning he was “with God.” Can one be with someone and at the same time be that person? At John 17:3, Jesus addresses the Father as “You, the only true God”. Jesus, as “a god,” simply reflects his Father’s divine qualities.—Hebrews 1:3.

(An excerpt, with some differences, from: Trinity — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)

2001translation.com renders John 1:1...
1 In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with The God (gr. Ton Theon) and the Word was a powerful one (gr. theos or god-like).

(The above are enlightening websites in many ways.)

Take care.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I've always thought the Bible is pretty clear about Jesus not being divine:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone"

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

In my opinion: honestly the man was just a Jewish reformer or founder of his own tradition at most. Christians have blown it way out of whack. I am of the opinion that Jesus was a mostly good person.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I've always thought the Bible is pretty clear about Jesus not being divine:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone"

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

In my opinion: honestly the man was just a Jewish reformer or founder of his own tradition at most. Christians have blown it way out of whack. I am of the opinion that Jesus was a mostly good person.

Good post.
It always intrigues me, that many who view Jesus as God, ignore Jesus' own words that express His opinion on the subject!

He constantly said, "the Father taught me", or something similar.
If he wanted his followers to worship him, he simply would have said so. He never did, but always directed attention to, and worshipped, his Father, the God of the Jews. And as Christians, we are to "follow his steps closely". Not worship his steps.

 

[Estro Felino]

No...it's all one sentence, and "the word" is established as the subject, whereas "god" in the second usage (without the definite article) is a predicate noun.

In his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” Philip B. Harner said that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Thus, in this text, the fact that the word the·osʹ in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”

Because of this, we have other translations' renderings:

1808
““and the word was a god””
The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864
““and a god was the Word””
The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935
““and the Word was divine””
The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1950
““and the Word was a god””
New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn.

1975
““and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany.

1978
““and godlike sort was the Logos””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

1979
““and a god was the Logos””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.

Besides, which understanding (of John 1:1) actually agrees with the context? John 1:14 clearly says that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . . we have beheld his glory.” But then, a few verses later, John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God.” Furthermore, verses 1 & 2 say that in the beginning he was “with God.” Can one be with someone and at the same time be that person? At John 17:3, Jesus addresses the Father as “You, the only true God”. Jesus, as “a god,” simply reflects his Father’s divine qualities.—Hebrews 1:3.

2001translation.com renders John 1:1...
1 In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with The God (gr. Ton Theon) and the Word was a powerful one (gr. theos or god-like).

(The above is an enlightening website in many ways.)

Take care.

HC...Lol... I don't mind acknowledging that that sentence can mean "And the Word was a god (god meaning deity or divine entity).
The problem is that I've read John in Greek and he never puts the predicative nominal before the subject..and besides, by Theòs (without article) he also means ò Theòs with article - like in this sentence Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης·.

Besides...we cannot ignore that in the Vulgata the sentence is

In principio erat Verbum, et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum.


where Deus is clearly subject and verbum is predicate noun.

Where did you learn Greek? That's awesome! (Or is it your native tongue?)

If I may ask, is there much of a difference between Koine Greek and Modern Greek to you?

I'm Italian...I started studying Ancient Greek in high school, I've always liked translating ancient texts.
Modern Greek is a completely different language than the Ancient one (including also the Koinè). The Gospels are written in a very simple language, there is no comparison with authors like Demosthenes

 

[Hockeycowboy]

HC...Lol... I don't mind acknowledging that that sentence can mean "And the Word was a god (god meaning deity or divine entity).
The problem is that I've read John in Greek and he never puts the predicative nominal before the subject..and besides, by Theòs (without article) he also means ò Theòs with article - like in this sentence Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης·.

Ok, John 1:6, "from god" (not "from the god); interesting. Thanks. I guess context is always important.

Take care.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

HC...Lol... I don't mind acknowledging that that sentence can mean "And the Word was a god (god meaning deity or divine entity).
The problem is that I've read John in Greek and he never puts the predicative nominal before the subject..and besides, by Theòs (without article) he also means ò Theòs with article - like in this sentence Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης·.

Where did you learn Greek? That's awesome! (Or is it your native tongue?)

If I may ask, is there much of a difference between Koine Greek and Modern Greek to you?

 

[Estro Felino]

What do you mean by this (In my opinion this passage is irrelevant, because the original phrase is clearly structured in order to define what God is, and not to define what the word (or Logos) is.)

What I was implying, speaking with @Hockeycowboy is that that passage is irrelevant to prove that Jesus is God, because John doesn't explicitly says it. In my opinion, John does say that God is Logos, but he doesn't mean necessarily that God and Jesus are the same person. He would have said it explicitly, I believe.
It's clear that Catholics use that passage to show that John means that Jesus=God, I think it is a matter of interpretation, it all depends on what you think God is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Muhammad answered your question in the Koran, this is one passage;

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (4:171, Yusif Ali)

Regards Tony

 

[pearl]

It's clear that Catholics use that passage to show that John means that Jesus=God,

Jesus is never God the father, but God the Son.

 

[pearl]

John 1:1
The crucial Greek words of the second and third lines are kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos. The debate about the third line centers on the fact that theos is used with out an article. Clearly, in the second line ho theos refers to God the Father, but in predicating theos without the article ho of the Word in the third line is without trying to suggest that the Word is somewhat less then the Father,(Jn14:28).
The first verse of the Prologue forms an inclusion with the last line of the Prologue, (1:18), "God the only Son"
([ho] monogenes theos).
The Prologue is a hymn and its hymnic confession "The Word was God" does not have the same ideological content found in Nicaea's confession that the Son was "true God of true God."
reference 'Jesus God and man'
Raymond Brown

 

[Apologetics]

John 1:1
The crucial Greek words of the second and third lines are kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos. The debate about the third line centers on the fact that theos is used with out an article. Clearly, in the second line ho theos refers to God the Father, but in predicating theos without the article ho of the Word in the third line is without trying to suggest that the Word is somewhat less then the Father,(Jn14:28).
The first verse of the Prologue forms an inclusion with the last line of the Prologue, (1:18), "God the only Son"
([ho] monogenes theos).
The Prologue is a hymn and its hymnic confession "The Word was God" does not have the same ideological content found in Nicaea's confession that the Son was "true God of true God."
reference 'Jesus God and man'
Raymond Brown

The article I wrote clearly uses several founding father teachings about the Jesus they knew. I used reference after reference. Please go back and read the references. My conclusions are supported by not what I personally believe but based on what they taught. John taught John 20:17 I ascend unto to My God and Your God . A God he worships for he confessed to Satan that he worships and serves his God and only him. Mat 4:10 Again Rev 3:12 Temple of my God. The Apostle Paul Clearly teaches the same Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ Again Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Again 1 Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul and Peter acknowledge and taught that Jesus has a God over him.

All of theses shed light on John 1:1 s true meaning. You see I let the writers of the bible do the explaining not me. I just sit back and believe what they wrote. So Its stands to reason that if Jesus has a God over him that he answers to and takes orders from. Ex my father sent me John 4:34. Then Jesus is in a subordinate position And not equal. Further more as I pointed out that the Hebrew writer specifically ,plainly describes the creator of the world Heb 1:2 in a position of honor at the right hand of someone greater than the creator Heb 1:3. The creator of the worlds being Jesus The Majesty on highs Created Son.

All of this sheds light on the true meaning of John 1:1 thats why I brought John 1:1 into the conversation.

Grammar is very important . And the Grammar used in Heb 1 st Chapter places Jesus subordinate not equal with the Majesty on High for he demonstrates that the creator of the world is not the Majesty on High and that there is someone greater than the creator of the worlds. Which is consistent with John 14:28 My Father is greater than I. So the Hebrew writer teaches someone greater than Jesus Gods Son and John records Jesus confessing someone greater than himself. The grammar here says Jesus is subordinate and not equal.

How does all this shed light on John 1:1. Since Rev 19:13 defines Jesus as the word of God ( of the Majesty on High) and John 3:16 describes Jesus has Gods only begotten Son. Conclusion the Son and the word are the same. Now Since John 20:17 Rev 3:12 Eph 1:17 Eph 1:3 1Pet 1:3 all describe Jesus who is the word as having a God he worships. Its then very plain to me at least that The word in John 1:1 being Jesus is being designated as the beginning of Gods ( The majesty on high ) Creation Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 Col 3:10 John 1:1 Heb 1:4

I posted

I ask you this question. Where do words come from? The answer is a mouth.They are spoken. John 1:1 In the beginning was a literal word. That literal word came out of the mouth of the Majesty on high. As Rev 19:13 says word of God same as Word from God. That literal word was spoken into existence. Thus God was the word John 1:1 A literal word in God's Mouth

If you go back and read the article I posted slowly there is much more detail that I wrote,

At least That is what I see when I read!!!

 

[Apologetics]

What I was implying, speaking with @Hockeycowboy is that that passage is irrelevant to prove that Jesus is God, because John doesn't explicitly says it. In my opinion, John does say that God is Logos, but he doesn't mean necessarily that God and Jesus are the same person. He would have said it explicitly, I believe.
It's clear that Catholics use that passage to show that John means that Jesus=God, I think it is a matter of interpretation, it all depends on what you think God is.

Okay understand now thx

 

[pearl]

You see I let the writers of the bible do the explaining not me.

And I turn to those scholars who are faithful believers in the life, D/R of Jesus the Christ. The Gospel of John is to be understood as how passages fit into the entire text of John, and John's relation to the NT. The Johannine church was unique in that it had severed from Judaism after being expelled from the synagogue.

That literal word came out of the mouth of the Majesty on high.

That literal word is a human word and is pregnant with fuller meaning.

 

[Apologetics]

Jesus is man Christ is Godlike (High Spiritual Being) Aeon.

Jesus is man Christ is Godlike (High Spiritual Being) Aeon. What do you mean ????

 

[socharlie]

Jesus is man Christ is Godlike (High Spiritual Being) Aeon. What do you mean ????

Jesus was born in Israel sometime around , they say, 4 A.D. Christ. Logos always was with God, before material world came to existence. Christ came to dwell in Jesus and remained in His body for 3 years, as Gospels say. So Jesus became Christ Jesus. Christ is a title.