Is Jesus God?

[Muffled]

That's because you believe in the trinity.

Let's just look at Heb 1. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son," Just in this verse, if Jesus pre-existed, why is God talking through prophets and not through His son? Then it says, then in the last days, he spoke onto us by his son..... Shouldnt these verses say that God always spoke through his son even at the beginning of time? It doesnt say that.. Think about it..... And that is just one of many verses....

I believe it is because I believe in facts.

I do not believe Jesus preexisted only that the Spirit of God in Jesus preexisted.

 

[james2ko]

I believe you are being illogical: "no god formed" does not equate to "God formed."

The verb yatzar (formed/created), in vs 10, describes a passive action being performed on the subject EL/God/YHVH. The reflexive pronouns also reflect this. My interpretation is supported grammatically. Thus inherently logical.

 

[moorea944]

I believe it is because I believe in facts.

I do not believe Jesus preexisted only that the Spirit of God in Jesus preexisted.

The Spirit of God in Jesus pre-existed?..... I'm trying to figure out what that really means..... You dont believe in the pre-existence of Jesus (which is a good thing), but God's Spirit pre-existed in Jesus.... who wasnt here yet... Maybe I read that wrong then. The Spirit of God or God's Spirit was always here though.

 

[moorea944]

The verb yatzar (formed/created), in vs 10, describes a passive action being performed on the subject EL/God/YHVH. The reflexive pronouns also reflect this. My interpretation is supported grammatically. Thus inherently logical.

So I guess your saying the God was created, which of course is wrong, but we cant tell YOU that..... So, who then, created God... in your terms.... of course.

 

[james2ko]

So I guess your saying the God was created, which of course is wrong, but we cant tell YOU that..... So, who then, created God... in your terms.... of course.

You are twisting my words in order to avoid/dodge parsing and explaining the meaning of the verb yatzar in Isa 43:10. As I've demonstrated in a previous post illustrating and explaining the definition of the term "EL", the deity speaking in the first person is not "The" uncreated God/EL/YHVH. He is "a" yatzar (created/formed) God/EL/YHVH. An agent/angel representing the family of the One True God, with the authority to speak in the first person.

 

[moorea944]

You are twisting my words in order to avoid/dodge parsing and explaining the meaning of the verb yatzar in Isa 43:10. As I've demonstrated in a previous post illustrating and explaining the definition of the term "EL", the deity speaking in the first person is not "The" uncreated God/EL/YHVH. He is "a" yatzar (created/formed) God/EL/YHVH. An agent/angel representing the family of the One True God, with the authority to speak in the first person.

You are twisting my words in order to avoid/dodge parsing and explaining the meaning of the verb yatzar in Isa 43:10

Absolutely not.

As I've demonstrated in a previous post illustrating and explaining the definition of the term "EL", the deity speaking in the first person is not "The" uncreated God/EL/YHVH. He is "a" yatzar (created/formed) God/EL/YHVH. An agent/angel representing the family of the One True God, with the authority to speak in the first person.

Your very confusing in your words. You flip alot. So your saying that the God in Isa. 43 is an angel or agent? Not really quit sure what your saying here.
I do agree with you that angels do represent the family of God and do have the authority to speak in the first person. But i'm still not sure what your saying about chapter 43's God. Are you saying it's an angel?

 

[james2ko]

Absolutely not.

Then can you finally parse and explain the relevance of the verb yatzar to its subject in Isa 43:10? If you do not do so this time, I'll just have to assume you don't know how.

Your very confusing in your words. You flip alot. So your saying that the God in Isa. 43 is an angel or agent? Not really quit sure what your saying here. I do agree with you that angels do represent the family of God and do have the authority to speak in the first person. But i'm still not sure what your saying about chapter 43's God. Are you saying it's an angel?

In a nutshell, I believe the deity in Isa 43:10 is the firstborn angel of YHVH, through whom God the Father created all things (perhaps His architect). He was assigned to oversee the affairs of Israel and later emptied himself of his spirit form and glory to become the "fully" human Jesus Christ (Php 2:6-7), allowing himself to be sacrificed for the sins of his people. This selfless, courageous, and sacrificial act resulted in his resurrection and exaltation above all of his companions-- the angels (Heb 1:4,9).

 

[moorea944]

Then can you finally parse and explain the relevance of the verb yatzar to its subject in Isa 43:10? If you do not do so this time, I'll just have to assume you don't know how.



In a nutshell, I believe the deity in Isa 43:10 is the firstborn angel of YHVH, through whom God the Father created all things (perhaps His architect). He was assigned to oversee the affairs of Israel and later emptied himself of his spirit form and glory to become the "fully" human Jesus Christ (Php 2:6-7), allowing himself to be sacrificed for the sins of his people. This selfless, courageous, and sacrificial act resulted in his resurrection and exaltation above all of his companions-- the angels (Heb 1:4,9).

Then can you finally parse and explain the relevance of the verb yatzar to its subject in Isa 43:10? If you do not do so this time, I'll just have to assume you don't know how.

When you read the whole chapter it is talking about God. We know that God was not formed or created. I think your using the word "yatzar" in the wrong context. To even think , that our Creator was created is awful and it totally degrades our Creator!! "There is no other God formed" That is your "yatzar" word for God. It is not talking about our God, Yahweh, it is talking about other false Gods, other man-made Gods that were formed and created by man. The LORD is saying that He is the only God. Ever!! Look at Isa 45 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me"

In a nutshell, I believe the deity in Isa 43:10 is the firstborn angel of YHVH, through whom God the Father created all things (perhaps His architect). He was assigned to oversee the affairs of Israel and later emptied himself of his spirit form and glory to become the "fully" human Jesus Christ (Php 2:6-7), allowing himself to be sacrificed for the sins of his people. This selfless, courageous, and sacrificial act resulted in his resurrection and exaltation above all of his companions-- the angels (Heb 1:4,9).

This has nothing to do with angels, it is God and Israel. Jesus was NOT an angel. Why would you ever compare him to an angel. Scripture tells us that he did NOT take on the nature of angels, but the seed of Abraham. He is also from the seed of David. Not from angels!! "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"

This is saying that Jesus was just like us. God was his father, but also David. He was the son of God and the son of man. Just like the scriptures tell us.

 

[Notaclue]

When you read the whole chapter it is talking about God. We know that God was not formed or created. I think your using the word "yatzar" in the wrong context. To even think , that our Creator was created is awful and it totally degrades our Creator!! "There is no other God formed" That is your "yatzar" word for God. It is not talking about our God, Yahweh, it is talking about other false Gods, other man-made Gods that were formed and created by man. The LORD is saying that He is the only God. Ever!! Look at Isa 45 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me"






This has nothing to do with angels, it is God and Israel. Jesus was NOT an angel. Why would you ever compare him to an angel. Scripture tells us that he did NOT take on the nature of angels, but the seed of Abraham. He is also from the seed of David. Not from angels!! "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"

This is saying that Jesus was just like us. God was his father, but also David. He was the son of God and the son of man. Just like the scriptures tell us.

Num.23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Tim.2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Christ Jesus is a Man !

 

[james2ko]

When you read the whole chapter it is talking about God. We know that God was not formed or
created.

1. The whole chapter cannot be about the uncreated God because the EL/YHVH in Isa 43:10 was created/formed.

I think your using the word "yatzar" in the wrong context.

2. The parsing of the verb reveals the identity of the EL in Isa 43:10. Since you don't have a clue of how to parse and evaluate grammar, I have to believe you are the one utilizing it incorrectly. Consequently causing an erred interpretation.

To even think , that our Creator was created is awful and it totally degrades our Creator!!

3. If Isa 43:10 was referring to the Father, I would have to agree. But it is His architect/angel --Jesus Christ. Israel's one and only, created and formed, physical and spiritual Savior.

"There is no other God formed" That is your "yatzar" word for God. It is not talking about our God, Yahweh, it is talking about other false Gods, other man-made Gods that were formed and created by man.

4. The grammar refutes your interpretation. The subject (God) is singular and so are all of the reflexive pronouns modifying the subject, yet your reply claims the subject is plural?? A prime example of how bias influences exegesis.

The LORD is saying that He is the only God. Ever!!

Look at Isa 45 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me"

5. The created EL is merely repeating what he already claimed in Isa 43:10, excluding the verb "yatzar".

This has nothing to do with angels, it is God and Israel. Jesus was NOT an angel. Why would you ever compare him to an angel. Scripture tells us that he did NOT take on the nature of angels, but the seed of Abraham. He is also from the seed of David. Not from angels!! "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"

6. Can you point to an explicit scripture stating Christ did NOT take on the nature of angels?

This is saying that Jesus was just like us. God was his father, but also David. He was the son of God and the son of man. Just like the scriptures tell us.

7. Angels are also sons of God. Just like the scriptures tell us.

 

[moorea944]

Num.23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Tim.2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

Christ Jesus is a Man !

Yes, I totally agree with you. Jesus is a man, who is now immortal in heaven

 

[moorea944]

1. The whole chapter cannot be about the uncreated God because the EL/YHVH in Isa 43:10 was created/formed.



2. The parsing of the verb reveals the identity of the EL in Isa 43:10. Since you don't have a clue of how to parse and evaluate grammar, I have to believe you are the one utilizing it incorrectly. Consequently causing an erred interpretation.



3. If Isa 43:10 was referring to the Father, I would have to agree. But it is His architect/angel --Jesus Christ. Israel's one and only, created and formed, physical and spiritual Savior.



4. The grammar refutes your interpretation. The subject (God) is singular and so are all of the reflexive pronouns modifying the subject, yet your reply claims the subject is plural?? A prime example of how bias influences exegesis.



5. The created EL is merely repeating what he already claimed in Isa 43:10, excluding the verb "yatzar".



6. Can you point to an explicit scripture stating Christ did NOT take on the nature of angels?



7. Angels are also sons of God. Just like the scriptures tell us.

Can you point to an explicit scripture stating Christ did NOT take on the nature of angels?

Heb 2v16 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

Angels are also sons of God. Just like the scriptures tell us.

Yes, that's true. And so are we.

If Isa 43:10 was referring to the Father, I would have to agree. But it is His architect/angel --Jesus Christ. Israel's one and only, created and formed, physical and spiritual Savior.

Architect/angel -- Jesus Christ? Wow! Jesus was not an angel. He was born a man. Scripture tells us he was from the seed of David and Abraham. Same nature as us.

 

[psychoslice]

Jesus is as much God as I am, and you, he was only a man who truly realized this, we and everything else is collectively God, its that simple for me.

 

[Notaclue]

The Coming of the Son of Man

Matt.24:29 (Jesus) “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

36“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, 'nor the Son', but the Father only.


Mk.13:28 (Jesus) “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

32“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, 'nor the Son', but only the Father.

Acts1:1. The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which 'the Father hath put in his own authority'

Jesus Christ doesn't know the times and seasons?

Peace.

.

 

[james2ko]

Heb 2v16 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham."

1. This is a flawed translation as the phrase "him the nature of" is absent in the Greek. This is evident by the italicization of the phrase "him the nature of " in the KJV. Notice the entry in Vincent's Word Studies:

""The nature" is not in the Greek, and does not need to be supplied if ἐπιλαμβάνεται is properly translated. Rend. not of angels doth he take hold. It is not angels who receive his help."​

The correct translation of Heb 2:16 is: "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham" (NKJ).

Architect/angel -- Jesus Christ? Wow! Jesus was not an angel. He was born a man. Scripture tells us he was from the seed of David and Abraham. Same nature as us

2. Yes. He was born a man. But prior to that, He was the first created member of the YHVH family. Unfortunately, you have not proven to me from the scriptures Christ did not pre-exist as an angel. Not only do you change the grammar of scripture (make a singular term plural) but you also add words to scripture in a desperate attempt to hold on to this flawed belief. Now that deserves another one of your wow's.

Yes, that's true. And so are we.

3. So if both men and angels are sons of God, then my interpretation that Christ was an angel prior to becoming a human is not as far-fetched as your "wow's" make it out to be.

 

[Jiddanand]

No. God is yet unknown.

 

[moorea944]

1. This is a flawed translation as the phrase "him the nature of" is absent in the Greek. This is evident by the italicization of the phrase "him the nature of " in the KJV. Notice the entry in Vincent's Word Studies:

""The nature" is not in the Greek, and does not need to be supplied if ἐπιλαμβάνεται is properly translated. Rend. not of angels doth he take hold. It is not angels who receive his help."​

The correct translation of Heb 2:16 is: "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham" (NKJ).



2. Yes. He was born a man. But prior to that, He was the first created member of the YHVH family. Unfortunately, you have not proven to me from the scriptures Christ did not pre-exist as an angel. Not only do you change the grammar of scripture (make a singular term plural) but you also add words to scripture in a desperate attempt to hold on to this flawed belief. Now that deserves another one of your wow's.



3. So if both men and angels are sons of God, then my interpretation that Christ was an angel prior to becoming a human is not as far-fetched as your "wow's" make it out to be.

The correct translation of Heb 2:16 is: "For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham" (NKJ).

The correct version? What about YTL or ESV or NIV or etc. Each one is different. It tells us that Jesus was not an angel.

Unfortunately, you have not proven to me from the scriptures Christ did not pre-exist as an angel.

Actually, it's you my friend that has to prove to me that Jesus WAS an angel. That is no where in scripture. But I understand where your coming from. Most cults believe in stuff like that....

Not only do you change the grammar of scripture (make a singular term plural) but you also add words to scripture in a desperate attempt to hold on to this flawed belief. Now that deserves another one of your wow's.

lol You crack me up! Too funny....

So if both men and angels are sons of God, then my interpretation that Christ was an angel prior to becoming a human is not as far-fetched as your "wow's" make it out to be.

Actually, it is far fetched that Jesus was an angel. No where in scripture does it tell us that. IT's you that is "making" the bible into your version of your cultish ways. Very simple ... how do you say it?.... Logic?......
But anyhow, good luck!!

 

[james2ko]

What about YTL or ESV or NIV or etc. Each one is different. It tells us that Jesus was not an angel.

YLT for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,
NIV For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.
ESV For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.​

1. Really??? It only states He does not help angels, but does help the offspring of Abraham. Where in this passage does it state or imply Jesus was never an angel???

The correct version?

2. Actually, the correct “version” are the Greek Manuscripts. They are missing the words you insert in your own private translation of Heb 2:16.

Actually, it's you my friend that has to prove to me that Jesus WAS an angel. That is no where in scripture. But I understand where your coming from. Most cults believe in stuff like that....

3. There is no need for me to prove anything to you. You already have full understanding of the nature of Christ, remember? It is me who is looking for greater understanding. So the burden of proof is on you to prove to me the bible states he was never an angel. But based on your total ignorance and corruption of its grammar, rampant use of fallacious rhetoric, and addition of missing words to the sacred text, has completely shattered any credibility in your interpretation.

lol You crack me up! Too funny....

4. I believe all truth goes through three phases. First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Congratulations, based on this and other replies, you have completed phases 1 and 2.

Actually, it is far fetched that Jesus was an angel. No where in scripture does it tell us that. IT's you that is "making" the bible into your version of your cultish ways. Very simple ... how do you say it?.... Logic?......But anyhow, good luck!!

5. I'm not the one making singular words plural and adding words to Heb 2:16 missing in the Greek so it can line up with my beliefs. So which one of us is really making the bible into their own version?

 

[thevoiceofgod]

I'm interested in hearing thoughts about (1) Where this idea comes from and (2) If you agree with it and why/why not. I have heard it described like this: Because of the Trinity, Jesus is God, and all the things done in the Old Testament were therefore done by Jesus prior to his human incarnation. Thoughts?

If Jesus was God, then he wouldn't have needed to die. He would have remained on earth forever.

Jesus was one of many prophets and saints who testified to the knowledge of God. From those testimonies both written and spoken, God has revealed not only His voice but everything he wanted us to know before he ends this first age.

Jesus testified to the Word of the Lord. Here are a few scriptures that he was speaking the words his Father put in his mind to speak.

John 7
13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
17: if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

John 12
49: For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.
50: And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me."

John 14
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
25: "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.

Here's an exchange of words with God and Moses;

Exodus 4:
10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue."
11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."

 

[moorea944]

If Jesus was God, then he wouldn't have needed to die. He would have remained on earth forever.

Jesus was one of many prophets and saints who testified to the knowledge of God. From those testimonies both written and spoken, God has revealed not only His voice but everything he wanted us to know before he ends this first age.

Jesus testified to the Word of the Lord. Here are a few scriptures that he was speaking the words his Father put in his mind to speak.

John 7
13: Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him.
14: About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
17: if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

John 12
49: For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.
50: And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me."

John 14
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
25: "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.

Here's an exchange of words with God and Moses;

Exodus 4:
10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue."
11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."

Great post. I just want to add somemore things here. Here's just a few verses that tell us that Jesus is not God and did not pre-exist.

Romans 1 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

1 Cor 11 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

2 Cor 5 "To know, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto..... himself."

Hebrews 1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 Tim 3v16 " God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

1 Peter 1v20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

1 John 4v3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,"

2 John 1 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."