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Is Jesus God?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Orbit, Feb 7, 2015.

  1. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    You are missing something James. Jesus was born a man, he was from the seed of David. God was also his father too. LIke I said before, there are no verses on pre-existence. Jesus came into this world by the power of God thru Mary. Simple language. Let's not try to change that, eh?

    There are no verses. The verses that you show are taken out of context.

    No, it doesnt. Why do you think Jesus "has to " pre-exist before his birth? For what reason?
    Look at 1 Peter 1v20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," What does this verse, like many, say to you? It says, that God knew Jesus before the foundation of the world, BUT... was manifest in these last times. This is just one of many verses like this. Jesus was in God's plans (logos) right from the beginning. God knew him, just like he knew us, right from the beginning. Very simple language here, Jesus didnt "have to" pre-exist. He was born.
    So.... if Jesus did pre-exist, which he didnt, are you saying that he went from immortal to mortal, then back to immortality? Doesnt make sense, does it.
     
  2. Notaclue

    Notaclue Member

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    Col.1:12. giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
    13who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
    14in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
    15who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

    Firstborn of all Creation.

    16for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto(in) him;

    All things have been created through Him and in Him

    17. and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.


    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    19For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell;
    20and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say , whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens.

    Heb.1:1. God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
    2in these last the days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

    And through whom He made the ages(time).

    Peace
     
  3. thevoiceofgod

    thevoiceofgod Active Member

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    The Word of God is the first born of His creation. The Word is the knowledge ( thoughts ) of God that He spoke into technology that is much more advanced than the technology He had His characters build in His program.
     
  4. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    I heard a virus defragged his hard drive, and they are trying to boot windows divinity 4.0 on a SSD
     
  5. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. Because scriptures indicates He did. Why? Because that is how the Father designed it and there is scriptural precedence of pre-existing angels becoming flesh .

    2. Peter merely emphasizes his role as a human being. Other scriptures indicate He pre-existed as the Logos, Israel's created EL (Isa 43:10), God's first creative act (Rev 3:14), His firstborn (Col 1:15). We shouldn't interpret scripture in a vacuum. We must consider all the scriptures on a topic before coming up with a doctrine. For example , If we read scripture in a vacuum, like you are doing , we can mistakenly assume Moses was of Egyptian descent (Ex 2:19).

    3. Angels are not immortal. The Father is the only One who is immortal--unable to die (1 Tim 6:16). Thus all angels are spirit beings who can be terminated by the Father. God has given them the ability to transform themselves from spirit to human and back to spirit. We see examples of this throughout scripture .

    What was different about the Angel of the LORD, the Logos, Israel's created EL, was the fact He was sent (apostello-G649-Joh 17:23) from heaven on a mission to become fully human, without the inherent ability to transform Himself back to spirit, unless He accomplished His mission--sacrificial death. Had he failed, He would have ceased to exist.

    Sacrificing himself was the only way He could be restored to His former, spirit glory. This is why He said in Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. This permanent life or permanent death mission is what made His sacrifice so special. All makes perfect sense to me.

    4. Your explanation of my non-contextual passage involved altering the text. Yet you continue to insist I'm the one taking the verse out of context. Now that, my friend, doesn't make sense to me.
     
  6. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they are. They are all immortal, ministering spirits. Scripture tells us that someday we will be like that angels. They cannot die. They are God's Holy Elect.

    Luke 20 "Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
    34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection"

    God is the only one who has always had immortality. Angels were given immortality, just like Jesus. Angels can also "appear" as men. But they are not "flesh and blood". They can appear as anything that want.
     
  7. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Firstborn of the world's creation? Paul say the firstborn of the second creation. He is also the "firstborn" of the dead. The first to show us that we can be raised up to have eternal life. He showed us the way.

    Yes. I agree. What it doesnt say, is... he was before all things. It says, "he IS before all things". Which is in power and authority. And that is so true!! It is not saying in time, but in place! The lord Jesus Christ is first in everything!

    Yes of course that is right. With His son in mind were the ages made. But look at the first verse. ".......at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets." Shouldnt that be, God spoke to Jesus at all times even in the beginning? No it doesn't.

    The ubiquitous use of ‘all things’ here and elsewhere in the New Testament is a quotation from Psa 8v6 which speaks of the supremacy of the risen Jesus over the whole of creation.
    "Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"
     
  8. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Just another note on this pre-existence issue.

    There are references in scripture that are taken out of context to suggest the Messiah existed previous to his being begotten through Mary. However, it should be understood that Jesus Christ was "intended" from the very beginning and all things were created and structered with him as the focus (1 Peter 1v20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you). Foreordained means preplanned... but not pre-existence.

    God loves Jesus even before he was born...... in much the same way parents love their conceived but unborn child. John 17v24 "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.". Parents love their childern months before they are born. This is not unique. We simply experience that same pre-birth love of an anticipated child. Simply because our Heavenly Father loved His son prior to that child's birth certainly does not offer any suggestion that Christ lived as a sentient being before he was born of Mary.

    Jesus was of God, his origins were of old, his existence was from "before the earth ever was" because, as John explains, he was the idea that was in the beginning, the divine idea through which the heavens and the earth were created and for which all things exist.

    In this sense his existence is before everything else, because everything (the universe) was formed for him and through him. Without him, says John, was not a single thing made that was made. This is a profound spiritual, physical and literal truth that goes far beyond common misconceptions of pre-existence. Jesus preceded the creation of the Universe because he is the reason that the Universe exists. Jesus Christ was the cause of the creation of the Universe.
     
  9. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. Read Luk 20:36 carefully and consider the context. Christ was comparing the sons of this age (human beings) who marry and whose human body can decay and die, to their bodies after the resurrection which cannot marry and can no longer decay and die. They will take on spirit bodies like the angels. It does not say or mean their spirit bodies can never be destroyed by the only immortal (who can never die) Father. If God can destroy both our bodies and souls (Mat 10:28), then He can terminate a spirit body.

    2. And is the "only" [monos-G3441-1 Ti 6:16] One who always will.

    3. I agree. When they appear as a human, I believe they are flesh and bones (Luk 24:39).

    4. But did He give them the absolute right to always keep it? If they were given immortality, it can be taken away. Anything God gives can be taken away. Remember the words of Job:

    Job 1:21 And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; Blessed be the name of the LORD."
     
  10. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. And there are references in scripture that you have altered to suggest the Messiah did not exist previous to his being begotten through Mary.

    2. Once again nothing there to convince me He did not pre-exist. The only definitive evidence you've given me has been altered passages like Isa 43:10 and Heb 2:16. And for some reason you ignored Rev 3:14.

    3. Why didn't you quote vs 23 and vs 5 which gives vs 24 its full contextual meaning:

    Joh 17:23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.​

    The context tells us the term "sent" [apostello-G649] is used here with the connotation of an "existing" messenger being dispatched on a mission. This term coincides with the context of vs 5 in the same chapter when Christ asked the Father to restore His glory to what it was before--connoting pre-existence.. And you have the nerve to claim and chastise others for taking verses out of context?

    Sorry moorea but your radical unitarianism doctrine has way too many holes and textual alterations to even consider.
     
  11. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Once again you miss the point. Once again you change the context to fit your JW doctrine that has way too many holes and textual alterations. Most cults do that..... It's incredible, how you alter everything to fit what you want it to fit. Jesus was sent, yes, into the world. But not from heaven. He did come from heaven, and he was from God, but not phyisically. He was sent out when he was already here on earth.

    "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." Would you say that John was in heaven and God sent him from heaven to the earth to be sent out on a mission? No of course not. So why would you say that for Jesus then?

    Sorry James but your radical JW doctrine has way too many holes and textual alterations to even consider. Just take it slow and really read the whole chapter instead of certain verses to make a doctrine out of it. You'll understand it better.

    I"ve altered them in "your mind" because you believe in something different than what the verses are really saying. That is obvious. You've demostrated that many times in the past. As far as Rev 3, can you tell me what your "version" is again? I want to be clear on that again.......
     
  12. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    1. I am not, nor ever have been a JW and it is a biblical doctrine. You have no proof of me adding words that are missing in the original manuscripts. The only one who has added terms missing in the originals (Isa 43:10 and Heb 2:16) to fit neatly into your beliefs is you.

    You are falsely accusing me of textual alterations in order to feel better about your own embarrasing alterations. It is a defense mechanism dubbed psychological projection or blame shifting:

    "Psychological projection, also known as blame shifting, is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unpleasant impulses by denying their existence while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude."​

    "Projection tends to come to the fore in normal people at times of crisis, personal or political[16] but is more commonly found in the neurotic or psychotic[17] in personalities functioning at a primitive level as in narcissistic personality disorder or borderline personality disorder" source

    May want to seek some counseling. And I mean this as a concerned brother.

    2. You are taking the verse out of its context. John the Baptist never asked God to restore Him to the glory He once had (imperfect-past tense). Jesus did. Hence John 17:23 suggests Christ's pre-existence.

    3. You have yet to even point out even one alteration of the text in my interpretation, yet you claim one exists. If blame shifting makes you feel better, then I'll be happy to be your punching bag. The holes are created by your addition of Greek words to Heb 2:16 (him nature of) and your alteration of Isa 43:10 where you interpret the term EL in the plural, when the Hebrew has it in the singular.

    4. I suggest you review the difference between singular and plural Hebrew terms. It will also be helpful to refrain from adding words to the Greek text. You'll understand scripture so much better.

    5. No. Not in my mind. You've altered them on this forum. In Isa 43:10, you changed the Hebrew term from singular to plural. Exposed in point 4 here:

    You added words to the original manuscripts of Heb 2:16 in point 1 here:

     
    #1492 james2ko, Feb 2, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  13. Notaclue

    Notaclue Member

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    Is.48:16. Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

    17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go


    and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.


    Who is talking here?


    Peace.
     
  14. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    Why do you want to know? Are you a JW?
     
  15. Notaclue

    Notaclue Member

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    The Jehovah Witnesses believe the Spirit of God is God. I believe it was created in the Beginning, One of the Seven Spirits 'of' God.

    Who is talking in Is.48.

    Peace.
     
  16. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    I was never a JW so I am not familiar with all of their doctrines. I believe the one speaking in vs 16 is the subordinate, created Logos/YHVH/God of Israel, who later became the Son of God-- Jesus Christ.
     
  17. Notaclue

    Notaclue Member

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    I agree.


    Rev.3:14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    I believe this is the Spirit of Wisdom.

    1Cor.1:24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    1Cor.1:18. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the 'power' of God.

    His Word and his Wisdom. Two of the Seven.

    Peace.
     
  18. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    I thought that you didnt believe in the trinity. So your saying that Yahweh, God of Israel "became' the Son of God - Jesus Christ? Interesting. Doesnt scripture tell us that God is the God and father of Jesus? So the Father became the Son.... Can you show us a verse that says that? (And not your version...)
     
  19. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    A future prophecy of Jesus is found in Isa 11, talks about God giving him seven things "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
    3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD:

    Is that what you were talking about?
     
  20. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe in the trinity. YHVH/God is a distributed family name given and used by angels (Eph 3:14-15). . Examples of angels taking on the name YHVH are found in Gen 18, 19 and other scriptures. I believe the created Jesus, not God the Father, was the YHVH you read about in the OT. We've been over this. It seems you keep repeating the same questions. I don't mind answering but it seems you have no interest in learning, only in trapping.
     
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