Is Jesus God?

[Kolibri]

Matthew 24:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth "even" unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And isn't that happening? Even now the "good news of the Kingdom is being preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations." (Mt 24:14)
Jesus' parousia has not been kept secret, and it has proved impossible to conceal those flashes of spiritual truths being preached.

 

[Unification]

And isn't that happening? Even now the "good news of the Kingdom is being preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations." (Mt 24:14)
Jesus' parousia has not been keep secret, and it has proved impossible to conceal those flashes of spiritual truths being preached.

You tell me friend, has the Son been resurrected inside of you or are you still waiting on a return? Has the Christ come IN your flesh?

 

[Kolibri]

You tell me friend, has the Son been resurrected inside of you or are you still waiting on a return? Has the Christ come IN your flesh?

I am who I am. I am not possessed by another personality. I do not hear voices, or see visions. Nor have I ever considered Jesus to be some omnipresent entity. I believe I am alive spiritually. Not because of some possession but because I have a friendship with Jehovah, and reliance on undeserved kindness shown me in scriptural and personal ways. I see the effect the holy spirit has on me as the fruitage of the spirit is much more evident in the way I think and behave than it would be normally (Ga 5:22,23) My prayers in harmony with Php 2:13 get answered; I find myself energized, having both the desire and the power to act as I keep "a tight grip on the word of life". (Php 2:16)

The Christ has always been present as Lord of the congregation. He has already returned as King of God's Kingdom. Soon he will remove the rival governments and then every eye will have to acknowledge him as being a reality. Both Jesus and Jehovah have helped me, and continue to do so. I hope I will always continue to grow in my appreciation and remain rooted in the faith.

I am not a person possessed by a "Jesus". I am energized by God's holy spirit as I keep asking for it. I keep seeking to live in harmony with God's will and purpose for me. I see myself currently in union with both Jehovah and Jesus as I live in harmony with what is asked of me and strive to remain w/o spot from this world's unclean attitudes, speech, and behaviors. (Jas 1:27; Ga 5:19-21)

 

[katiemygirl]

I am reading the Holy Scriptures that was translated into the Greek language.

Koine Greek: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεός ἦν ὁ λόγος.
Greek transliteration: En archē ēn ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos ēn pros ton Theón, kai Theós ēn ho Lógos.
Greek to English: In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with (toward) the God, and God was the Word.
Sahidic Coptic to English: In the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word
Jubilee Bible: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.

Biblical scholars know that every Word of God must agree with each other in order to avoid false doctrines.
So when we read words that came before John 1:1, such as:

1. "I [am] the [YAHWEH] thy God,...Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:2-3 KJV)
2. Hear Israel: YAHWEH is our God, YAHWEH is one (Deuteronomy 6:4)
3. I am YAHWEH. That is my name! And my glory will I not give to another; neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8)

Bible scholars have to make sure that any branch of translation does not break away from the root of the tree; that is, God's first five books, the Books of the Prophets, and the Books of Wisdom (i.e. Proverbs, Psalms, etc.).

For over 4,000 years, all believers in God believe that there is one God.
Then came later some teachers saying that Jesus Christ is "The God"; now you have two "THE GODS".
The root (Book of Moses & Prophets) does not support this (grafted) branch of translation. Therefore, what shall we do? Scholars have the options to:

1. Re-visit this translation and re-translate it in order to support the Foundation of Scriptures (i.e. the Tanakh), the root.
2. Keep the translation and make the root support the branch translation by:
A. The old truths no longer applies; the new "truths" replaces the old; or
B. The new translation agrees with the old teachings; AND they usually have a harder time explaining why the change?

Now this is why I see that the words in John 1:1 show that Jesus is not "The God".
There are two gods mentioned in John 1:1; and they are: THE GOD (TON THEON) and a god (THEOS)
Jesus is the Son of God; however he is not THE GOD (i.e. TON THEON), he is only a god (THEOS \ THEON).
If you searched the Greek manuscript for the phrase "TON THEON", you will find that this title is only reserved for only for YAHWEH (THE GOD). And this phrase is found 124 times; and not one TON THEON is attributed to or given to Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Had the Greek Translators kept the name of YAHWEH in their translations; this confusion of "Which God?" would have never been a problem in other languages.

This is why I see that Jesus is simply a god (THEOS, THEON) and not THE GOD (TON THEON), i.e. YAHWEH. Also, THEON and THEOS can refer to THE GOD (YAHWEH) in context.
However, Jesus was using the word "god" much the same way that YAHWEH called Moses a "god" before Pharaoh.
"And [YAHWEH] said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (Exodus 7;1)
In addition, Jesus said that he considers himself a god in the same definition of a man being called a "god":

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (THEOI)
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:33-36)

But if you consider Moses to be a "god"; then you have something more than a trinity if you translate and use Jesus' definition of a "god" (THEOUS, THEON), which is from Psalm 82:6. Because the Sons of Gods are considered gods (AELHYM) according to THE LORD (YAHWEH). Of course, this kind of revelation opens the trinity argument to another topic.

By the way, I believe that Bible translators considers it acceptable to add indefinite articles to the word "god"; if the article "a" makes the translation clearer. For example the KJV translators arbitrarily chose when to translate the Greek New Testament nouns with either "god" or "a god". Take for example the following verses that translate THEOS, THEON into "a god": Luke 20:38, Acts 12:22, Acts 28:6, and Hebrews 8:10.
But I read that the Greek translation does not use the indefinite article "a" for nouns in their Holy Bible.

"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." (Romans 11:18 KJV)

The New Testament Scriptures are written in Greek. I don't understand why you said they were translated into Greek. The manuscripts we have are written in Greek already.

I understand the OT was translated from Hebrew to Greek.

The majority of reputable Greek scholars do not translate "a god" in John 1:1. Only those with a bias do, those who refuse to accept that Jesus is God. I choose to go with the majority.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Mark, the first gospel, has Jesus saying nothing about his divinity, but by John, the last written, it's all about that. I think it was a concept that became popular as time went on.

 

[katiemygirl]

The rationale for using "Jehovah" in all 237 places of the Christian Greek Scriptures has not been glossed over.

The issue, as per this thread, is that by legitimately placing the Father's name in these locations, as documented, Alpha and Omega gets designated as the Father, not the Son, as per Re 1:8.
For that is the name that is used there as per J7,8,13,14,16-18,22-24.

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get to this post. This is a busy time for me. I have had family visiting, and they will be here until Saturday, so not a lot of time for posting. I'm keeping it short due to time.

The translators of the NWT claimed to be most cautious, "carefully" considering the Hebrew Scriptures when inserting Jehovah into the New Testament. In the Forward of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, it states,

"To avoid overstepping the bounds of a translator into the field of exegesis, we have tried to be most cautious about rendering the diving name, always carefully considering the Hebrew Scriptures as a background. We have looked for some agreement with us by the Hebrew versions we consulted to confirm our rendering.” —The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures,..." pp. 11-12

So please explain these verses where the translators of the NWT chose NOT to insert “Jehovah” into their text, even through the passages being quoted from the Hebrew Old Testament contained the name.

1st KEFA (Peter) 3:14-15 “…And do not be afraid of those who frighten you and do not be troubled. But sanctify YHWH,* the Messiah, in your hearts….” —Hebraic-Roots Version “New Testament,” James Scott Trimm, pp. 339-340 (Footnote: *Isaiah 8:12-13)

PHILIPPIANS 2:11 “That at the name of Yeshua every knee will bow that is in heaven and on earth and that is under the earth, And every tongue will confess* that Yeshua the Messiah is YHWH, to the glory of Eloah his Father.” —Hebraic-Roots Version “New Testament,” James Scott Trimm, pp. 339-340 (Footnote: *Isaiah 45:23-24)

NWT - NT - 1984 - PHILIPPIANS 2:10-11: “so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend … and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”

NWT - OT - 1984 - ISAIAH 45:23-24: “…to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear, saying, ‘Surely in Jehovah there are full righteousness and strength….

Why didn't the translators insert “Jehovah” for kyrios at Philippians 2:11 even though it is quoting Isaiah 45:23?

I believe the answer is quite obvious. It's because Jesus is called Jehovah!

According to Watchtower, “None of the Hebrew translations render KYRIOS YESUS (Lord Jesus) as Jehovah Jesus. This is completely untrue! I have provided examples of where the Hebrew versions say, “Yeshua the Messiah is YHWH” at Philippians 2:11.

1 Corinthians 12:3 in the Hebrew manuscripts reads: “YHWH is Yeshua."

Yet the 1984 NWT ignores the Hebrew version of 1 Corinthians 12:3. “…nobody can say: ‘Jesus is Lord!’ except by holy spirit.”

The NWT is a corrupt, sectarian translation. It is a work of Satan!

 

[Kolibri]

1st KEFA (Peter) 3:14-15 “…And do not be afraid of those who frighten you and do not be troubled. But sanctify YHWH,* the Messiah, in your hearts….” —Hebraic-Roots Version “New Testament,” James Scott Trimm, pp. 339-340 (Footnote: *Isaiah 8:12-13)

PHILIPPIANS 2:11 “That at the name of Yeshua every knee will bow that is in heaven and on earth and that is under the earth, And every tongue will confess* that Yeshua the Messiah is YHWH, to the glory of Eloah his Father.” —Hebraic-Roots Version “New Testament,” James Scott Trimm, pp. 339-340 (Footnote: *Isaiah 45:23-24)

Funny! You are quoting from a Bible released in 2004 to 'prove' that a quote from 1969/1985 is an untruth with the intent to deceive.
I can only figure that your life truly has been busy.

That aside, are these actual quotes? Lets compare the verses in Isaiah referenced by Trimm

You should not call a conspiracy what this people calls a conspiracy!
Do not fear what they fear;
Do not tremble at it.
Jehovah of armies - he is the One you should regard as holy.
He is the One you should fear,
And he is the One who should cause you to tremble.'
- Isaiah 8:12,13

"Indeed, who will harm you if you become zealous for what is good? But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are happy. However, do not fear what they fear, (or possibly, "do not fear their threats.") nor be disturbed. But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect." - 1 Peter 3:13-15

I do see the "do not fear what they fear". Hmm. Let's move on for a moment.

By myself I have sworn;
The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness,
And it will not return:
To me every knee will bend,
Every tongue will swear loyalty
And say, 'Surely in Jehovah are true righteousness and strength.
And those enraged against him will come before him in shame.
- Isaiah 45:23,24

"For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend - of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground - and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." - Philippians 2:9-11

The parts of Philippians 2:9-11 that say "God exalted him" and "to the glory of God the Father." clearly shows Jehovah setting up Jesus has his Chief Agent. (Acts 3:15; 5:31; Hebrews 2:10; 12:2)

An agent is someone that acts on behalf or another person. He/She is someone that produces an effect for another. It does not mean that the agent becomes the other person. At most the agent becomes a representative for a time. Because Jesus is God's chosen king, those that bend their knee to him are, in effect, bending their knee to the source of his authority too. It is as John 5:22,23 says:

"For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

As Trimm's HPV is a very recent addition to the Hebrew Bibles out there, his by no means can be used to show dishonesty on the part of a quote from The Kingdom Interlinear that predates it by at least 23 years (assuming the quote was new in the 1985 update.)

Trimm seems to overlook the Bible teaching of Agency when he converts Lord to Jehovah in at least these 2 places, and he has no historical precedent to fall back on.


We get jumpy in our biases. I do too. Like I said earlier, I believe you when you said your life has been busy.

 

[Katzpur]

I accept your apology.

That's nice. Except that I didn't apologize. Please don't tell me your reading comprehension is really that bad. Or is it just that you are incapable of saying, "I misunderstood you"? We all misunderstand other people from time to time, so to pretend that you don't is really kind of egotistical.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Who'se in the lead?

 

[Nada]

That's nice. Except that I didn't apologize. Please don't tell me your reading comprehension is really that bad. Or is it just that you are incapable of saying, "I misunderstood you"? We all misunderstand other people from time to time, sop to pretend that you don't is really kind of egotistical.

You know I have been meaning to block you.Better late than never.
Ok.You are blocked.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Kolibri, post: 4193109, member: 55852
As Trimm's HPV is a very recent addition to the Hebrew Bibles out there, his by no means can be used to show dishonesty on the part of a quote from The Kingdom Interlinear that predates it by at least 23 years (assuming the quote was new in the 1985 update.)

Trimm seems to overlook the Bible teaching of Agency when he converts Lord to Jehovah in at least these 2 places, and he has no historical precedent to fall back on.

The 1984 edition of the New World Translation correctly cross references 1 Peter 3:14 to Isaiah 8:12, but when the divine name appears in the quote of Isaiah 8:13 in 1 Peter 3:15, they deceptively leave off the cross-reference which gives support to the Hebrew version’s translation of “YHWH, the Messiah.” Likewise, in the newer 2013 edition of the New World Translation, the Watchtower continued their deception by completely removing all cross-references to Isaiah 8 in this passage of 1 Peter 3:14-15.

The most ancient manuscripts that we possess of this passage all agree with the “sanctify Christ as Lord” rendering over the “sanctify the Lord God” rendering of the King James Bible, it is clear that the Apostle Peter quoted Isaiah 8:12-13 and applied it directly to Jesus by saying that just as we are to set Jehovah apart as holy, we are to set the Messiah (Christ) apart as holy by sanctifying Him in our hearts. Thus, when the translators of the Hebrew version’s rendering of 1 Peter 3:15 encountered this quote of Isaiah 8:12-13, they translated 1 Peter 3:15 as “sanctify YHWH, the Messiah, in your hearts.”

Not only does the Watchtower Society deny the obvious connection of Philippians 2:10-11 with Isaiah 45:23-24, but they boldly state that: “None of the Hebrew translations render ”KYRIOS YESUS (Lord Jesus) as “‘Jehovah Jesus.” This is completely untrue. The Hebrew versions say, “Yeshua the Messiah is YHWH” at Philippians 2:11.

PHILIPPIANS 2:11 “That at the name of Yeshua every knee will bow that is in heaven and on earth and that is under the earth, And every tongue will confess* thatYeshua the Messiah is YHWH, to the glory of Eloah his Father.” —Hebraic-Roots Version “New Testament,”James Scott Trimm, pp. 339-340 (Footnote: *Isaiah 45:23-24)

What about the newest edition of the NWT? Where's the consistency in inserting the divine name into the New Testament?

JW's are so brainwashed by Watchtower, they can't see the forest for the trees, or REFUSE to, anyway.

 

[katiemygirl]

That's nice. Except that I didn't apologize. Please don't tell me your reading comprehension is really that bad. Or is it just that you are incapable of saying, "I misunderstood you"? We all misunderstand other people from time to time, sop to pretend that you don't is really kind of egotistical.

Hi Katzpur,
I trust all went well with your surgery. I pray your therapy is going well.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

simple answer No he ain't G-d

 

[katiemygirl]

simple answer No he ain't G-d

Yes He is God!

 

[Katzpur]

You know I have been meaning to block you.Better late than never.
Ok.You are blocked.

Block enough people, Bible Student, and you won't have anybody left to talk to.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur,
I trust all went well with your surgery. I pray your therapy is going well.

Thank you Katie. Yes, everything went well. It was two weeks ago yesterday and I'm seeing my doctor this afternoon for the first time since I got home. I appreciate your prayers.

 

[katiemygirl]

Thank you Katie. Yes, everything went well. It was two weeks ago yesterday and I'm seeing my doctor this afternoon for the first time since I got home. I appreciate your prayers.

Has therapy started yet? Are you able to get around at all? Take advantage of people waiting on you while you can.

 

[Nada]

You are in good company Katzpur. He doesn't want to talk to me either. You must have hit his "truth" nerve.

Come on now.Talking about another member in third person in these forums is against the rules.Please do not be talking about me.

"1. Personal comments about Members and Staff
Personal attacks, and/or name-calling are strictly prohibited on the forums. Speaking or referring to a member in the third person, ie "calling them out" will also be considered a personal attack. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff."


RF Rules | ReligiousForums.com

I just blocked you too.I do not tolerate behavior like yours.Very childish.

 

[Katzpur]

Has therapy started yet? Are you able to get around at all? Take advantage of people waiting on you while you can.

I started therapy almost immediately and have already "graduated" from a walker to a cane.

 

[Kolibri]

The 1984 edition of the New World Translation correctly cross references 1 Peter 3:14 to Isaiah 8:12, but when the divine name appears in the quote of Isaiah 8:13 in 1 Peter 3:15, they deceptively leave off the cross-reference which gives support to the Hebrew version’s translation of “YHWH, the Messiah.” Likewise, in the newer 2013 edition of the New World Translation, the Watchtower continued their deception by completely removing all cross-references to Isaiah 8 in this passage of 1 Peter 3:14-15.

All the cross references have been greatly reduced for this revision. There is no conspiracy here.

The most ancient manuscripts that we possess of this passage all agree with the “sanctify Christ as Lord” rendering over the “sanctify the Lord God” rendering of the King James Bible, it is clear that the Apostle Peter quoted Isaiah 8:12-13 and applied it directly to Jesus by saying that just as we are to set Jehovah apart as holy, we are to set the Messiah (Christ) apart as holy by sanctifying Him in our hearts. Thus, when the translators of the Hebrew version’s rendering of 1 Peter 3:15 encountered this quote of Isaiah 8:12-13, they translated 1 Peter 3:15 as “sanctify YHWH, the Messiah, in your hearts.”

As was mentioned about the Philippians quote, you are leaving out the thought of Agency. And evidently this very recent addition to Hebrew translations, the HRV, did too.

Not only does the Watchtower Society deny the obvious connection of Philippians 2:10-11 with Isaiah 45:23-24, but they boldly state that: “None of the Hebrew translations render ”KYRIOS YESUS (Lord Jesus) as “‘Jehovah Jesus.” This is completely untrue. The Hebrew versions say, “Yeshua the Messiah is YHWH” at Philippians 2:11.

You are quoting from a Bible released in 2004 to 'prove' that a quote from 1969/1985 is a lie. To prove something is a lie you have to limit your source material to what was true at the time.

And this is reading into the quote what you want to. "Lord Jesus" is just that. "Lord Jesus" is never more than those 2 words.

What about the newest edition of the NWT? Where's the consistency in inserting the divine name into the New Testament?

What? The NWT translation committee was supposed to mindlessly copy any new translation that comes out from now on into infinity? The ruling as you recall was to limit how often the divine name appeared in the Christian Greek Scriptures to what has had precedent in Hebrew Translations, with the one exception in 1 Cor 7:17. That rule never stated that all new occurrences would mindlessly be transferred to the NWT. Only that what would be found would almost invariably have precedent. This inconsistency argument holds no water.

JW's are so brainwashed by Watchtower, they can't see the forest for the trees, or REFUSE to, anyway.

slander.