Is God "outside of time"?

[Wandered Off]

If a being is outside of time, wouldn't that mean it would have to be completely static (unchanging, inactive)? Actions, including interactions with humans or others "in time" are defined as having a beginning and an ending. The concept of "beginning" and "ending" have no referent outside of time, so how can a being outside of time act or be anything other than static? Does a being have to "enter time" to act? Is the being changed by such action, which would work against stasis? What would "initiate" any will or thought for a being outside of time? We think of thought (ooh, loopy!) in a temporal context with a beginning and end. What kind of thought or communication or any other action can exist outside of time?

All discrete actions, even "mental actions" (thought), as far as I know, have beginnings and endings. They way we can tell whether action is occurring or has occurred is by observing change. Time and change are inextricably intertwined.

In deference to our atheist friends, we can leave God out of it for just a moment to make it relevant: Can change exist outside of time?

I think God (or any being who will act in any way) must have time as a conduit for action. It may well be that time itself has no decaying effect on God or the 'spirit world'. Still, I think time is necessary for actions, as all actions entail a beginning and end - which have no referent outside of time. That's my beef with the 'outside of time' concept.

One of the biggest reasons for the “outside of time” notion in the first place is the thought that God created everything, including time, so God cannot be bound by time, as that would somehow be demeaning or would compromise omnipotence. I don’t see how, though.

Maybe the real argument isn’t about whether God exists outside of time but whether time is linear for God as it is for us.

Is this is just one of those "You would never understand so shut up" things?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Maybe the real argument isn’t about whether God exists outside of time but whether time is linear for God as it is for us.

First of all, the understanding of time as linear is a Western concept. Many cultures consider time to be circular.

As Creator, I believe that God is the Creator of everything, including space and time, so God does exist self-sufficiently outside of everything that we as the created can know or discover. However, God does have the power as Creator to interact with the created as God chooses - so while God exists outside of history, God can interact in history as God chooses.

 

[Wandered Off]

First of all, the understanding of time as linear is a Western concept. Many cultures consider time to be circular.

Thank you, a_e. I admit limited knowlege of non-Western cultures, so I appreciate any input. By circular, do you mean that at some point it goes 'backward'? Or do you mean repetitive perhaps?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thank you, a_e. I admit limited knowlege of non-Western cultures, so I appreciate any input. By circular, do you mean that at some point it goes 'backward'? Or do you mean repetetive perhaps?

Both.

Think of Hindu reincarnation and Austrialian dream time.

Aboriginal people call Dreaming the all-at-once time because they experience it as the past, present, and future co-existing.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalachakra

 

[Jeremiah61]

All discrete actions, even "mental actions" (thought), as far as I know, have beginnings and endings. They way we can tell whether action is occurring or has occurred is by observing change. Time and change are inextricably intertwined.

That is just it. If there are dimensions higher than Time, there probably are, and God somehow interacts with them, probably does, I seriously doubt we would be able to understand or comprehend the activity and just how he acts. On the "Divine level" so to speak, one may find change, in a sense, but it would be incomprehensible to one who has not 'witnessed' it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Again from the great wiki

[edit] Linear time versus circular time

In general, the Judaeo-Christian concept, based on the Bible, is that time is linear, with a beginning, the act of creation by God. The Christian view assumes also an end, the eschaton, expected to happen when Christ returns to earth in the Second Coming to judge the living and the dead. This will be the consummation of the world and time. St Augustine's City of God was the first developed application of this concept to world history. The Christian view is that God and the supernatural world are outside time and exist in eternity. This view relies on interpretation however, for some Jewish and Christian sects believe time may in fact be cyclical.[citation needed] On the other hand, the dharmic religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism, have a concept of a wheel of time, that regards time as cyclical and quantic consisting of repeating ages that happen to every being of the Universe between birth and extinction.

In recent years this cyclical vision of time has been embraced by theorists of quantic space-time and systems theory.

 

[Jeremiah61]

Ahh, Wikipedia, the world's most overrated blog.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ahh, Wikipedia, the world's most overrated blog.

:tribal:Neglect the great and powerful wiki to thy peril!:tribal:

:tribal2:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

May my lips never utter blasphemy of the blessed words of the wiki!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ahh, Wikipedia, the world's most overrated blog.

I posted this on another thread...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40150&page=2&highlight=Perdue

I was shocked to hear a scholarly lecture today that reviewed several wiki articles and concluded that while there were some errors, many of the articles reflected a very informed reading and a variety of scholarly viewpoints. Thus, the great wiki can be used only if we use it critically - just like we use everything else.

There were no complaints from Leo Perdue.

Still, I may fail a paper for citing the mighty wiki, but it is useful as a starting point.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

May my lips never utter blasphemy of the blessed words of the wiki!

Quite right!

May such baseless criticisms of the wiki be blotted out forever!

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

Time being part of creation, yes: God is outside of time and not bound by it.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[sandy whitelinger]

First of all, the understanding of time as linear is a Western concept. Many cultures consider time to be circular.

As Creator, I believe that God is the Creator of everything, including space and time, so God does exist self-sufficiently outside of everything that we as the created can know or discover. However, God does have the power as Creator to interact with the created as God chooses - so while God exists outside of history, God can interact in history as God chooses.

Wow, you said something I completly agree with....go buy yourself a beer and send me the bill.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

go buy yourself a beer and send me the bill.

Whoo-hoooo!

 

[Wandered Off]

As Creator, I believe that God is the Creator of everything, including space and time

Do you think creation was spontaneous, or was there a will or 'cause' within God to initiate the process? I know it's speculation, but then the whole thread is, so why not?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Do you think creation was spontaneous, or was there a will or 'cause' within God to initiate the process? I know it's speculation, but then the whole thread is, so why not?

My confession is that God created the world, so yes, the creation was spontaneous in the since that God did it when and how God desired.

 

[cardero]

GOD speaks of moments but never in time as we define or understand it.

 

[Wandered Off]

My confession is that God created the world, so yes, the creation was spontaneous in the since that God did it when and how God desired.

Good, I like that. If a desire is defined as a difference between what actually is and what one wants, then God had an awareness of this difference. Outside of time, how is it possible to tell the difference between any two states? IOW, without time to process the difference, how did it 'get' there, or was it always there? Maybe this where my time-bound brain dashes off the cliff...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God had an awareness of this difference. Outside of time, how is it possible to tell the difference between any two states? IOW, without time to process the difference, how did it 'get' there, or was it always there? Maybe this where my time-bound brain dashes off the cliff...

Yes. In our opinion God is powerful.

You'll be fine as long as you dash off the cliff with Hawkins.

 

[logician]

For a supposed god to CREATE a universe it would have to exist exterior to or not part of that universe, therefore not bound by time and space.

That said, I don't believe in supernatural entities because they are not necessary for existence, they only seem necessary for mankind's personal needs.