Is God or Religious Truth Real?

[Trailblazer]

Jesus was born that way. He didn't have time to "evolve". So are they special creations or are they ordinary humans that grow into being so spiritual that they can communicate with God?

Good question. Yes, Jesus and all the Manifestations of God were born with innate abilities, and that is why the Bab said "I am not a man like you..."

The reason Manifestations of God are different from ordinary men is because their souls existed in the spiritual world before they were born into this world, so they are unlike other humans whose souls come into being at the moment of conception.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)
​

Manifestations of God possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Let me ask you some questions:

1. Do you believe in reincarnation, and if so where is that belief to be found in the Bible?
2. Why would we need to come back to this earthly world to make spiritual progress? Can you imagine being able to progress in the many worlds of God that we go to after leaving this world?
3. Do you consider it "just" for a God to give us the same opportunities all over again, when we have already been given those opportunities?
4. Would you want to come back to this world and do it all over again? I could never believe that a "loving" God" would inflict that kind of punishment upon anyone. This world is a dark and narrow place compared to the spiritual world. I often wonder why a loving God would require us to endure it for one lifetime, but since I know the reason I am able to still believe.

1. Yes, I believe reincarnation is possibly true. In the Bible this is one of the beliefs. For example: Mark 6:14-16; John 9:2.

2. Because experience is gathered while living in a body. It's a test/lesson where you can show some qualities and make choices. As I said free will is necessary. How can you be forced to love or to love some more? It wouldn't be true love anymore. That's why I believe even God can't do that. Neither here neither in heaven.

I imagine there is possible to progress in different worlds.

3. Yes, because we are growing/learning. We are on a path. If you don't learn a lesson you have to repeat it. Some need more some need less repetition. I think eventually all will learn.

4. Here is a perfect place to learn, love, compassion, unselfishness, patience, forgiveness... When I go to a "better" place I expect there will be people who have learned this to some degree. Otherwise it wouldn't be a better place.

 

[CG Didymus]

The reason Manifestations of God are different from ordinary men is because their souls existed in the spiritual world before they were born into this world, so they are unlike other humans whose souls come into being at the moment of conception.

So a manifestation is an "incarnation" of a spiritual being? So, in a way, the Hindus are correct in believing Krishna was an incarnation of Vishnu?

 

[Trailblazer]

1. Yes, I believe reincarnation is possibly true. In the Bible this is one of the beliefs. For example: Mark 6:14-16; John 9:2.

2. Because experience is gathered while living in a body. It's a test/lesson where you can show some qualities and make choices. As I said free will is necessary. How can you be forced to love or to love some more? It wouldn't be true love anymore. That's why I believe even God can't do that. Neither here neither in heaven.

I imagine there is possible to progress in different worlds.

3. Yes, because we are growing/learning. We are on a path. If you don't learn a lesson you have to repeat it. Some need more some need less repetition. I think eventually all will learn.

4. Here is a perfect place to learn, love, compassion, unselfishness, patience, forgiveness... When I go to a "better" place I expect there will be people who have learned this to some degree. Otherwise it wouldn't be a better place.

Thanks for replying.

1. Yes, I believe reincarnation is possibly true. In the Bible this is one of the beliefs. For example: Mark 6:14-16; John 9:2.

• I believe that the spirit of a person can return in another person, but I do not believe that the spirit is the same thing as the soul. For example, I believe that the spirit of Christ returned in the Person of Baha'u'llah, but the soul of Jesus remained in heaven as a separate soul. So I do not believe that souls ever return to earth for a do-over in another body.

2. Because experience is gathered while living in a body. It's a test/lesson where you can show some qualities and make choices. As I said free will is necessary. How can you be forced to love or to love some more? It wouldn't be true love anymore. That's why I believe even God can't do that. Neither here neither in heaven.

• I agree with all of that.

3. Yes, because we are growing/learning. We are on a path. If you don't learn a lesson you have to repeat it. Some need more some need less repetition. I think eventually all will learn.

• I agree with that in part. I say that because I do not KNOW if we will have to repeat a lesson until we learn and I do not KNOW if everyone will necessarily learn certain lessons they need to learn. Some people might never learn and remain stuck, in this life and in the afterlife. There is really no way to know what will happen, so this is conjecture.

4. Here is a perfect place to learn, love, compassion, unselfishness, patience, forgiveness... When I go to a "better" place I expect there will be people who have learned this to some degree. Otherwise it wouldn't be a better place.

• I agree. This world is a perfect place to learn, love, compassion, unselfishness, patience, forgiveness, although I do not believe that everyone will necessarily learn those in this world or in the afterlife. I just don't know what will happen because the afterlife is a mystery for the most part.
• I believe that in the afterlife there will be souls who are more advanced that us and souls who are less advanced, and "maybe" we will be able to learn from the more advanced souls, if they choose to come down to our level and teach us what they know.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

While God is handing out knowledge from messengers, why do the messengers not tell us the conversion method of converting matter to energy so we can get off the fossil fuels??

God’s Messenger presently has more pressing needs to take care of such as preventing humans from exterminating themselves and most of the planet! I guess you don’t watch the news! The disunity of the human race is profound despite Baha’u’llah throwing out a life raft!

You want it too easy. You want it served up on a silver platter.

I want it served up on a silver platter?

Humans have the capacity to examine how the physicality of things work themselves without God’s Messengers wasting their time with revealing “the conversion method of converting matter to energy so we can get off the fuels”! Would that save humans from hate, greed, corruption, which is the negation or failure to develop the spiritual qualities of love, sacrifice, and justice?

Life is about Learning, Growing, and Discovering. It has never been about memorizing.

Unless justice is established in society how do you imagine all people having the opportunity to learn, grow and discover? What do you mean by memorizing? Memorizing what?

 

[Trailblazer]

So a manifestation is an "incarnation" of a spiritual being? So, in a way, the Hindus are correct in believing Krishna was an incarnation of Vishnu?

I said: The reason Manifestations of God are different from ordinary men is because their souls existed in the spiritual world before they were born into this world, so they are unlike other humans whose souls come into being at the moment of conception.

I did not say that a Manifestation is an incarnation of a spiritual being.

In order to understand what meant you first need to understand the three stations of a Manifestation of God:

Manifestations of God are humans, just like you and I, but they have special powers and capacities, so they were above other humans; but they were also human. The third station is what differentiates Manifestations of God from all other humans:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152​

Okay, so what returns to earth in every age is not the soul of the Manifestation of God. (If the soul returned to earth that would be reincarnation.) The soul of Jesus is unique to Jesus and it will never return to earth; it will remain in heaven forever. What returns to earth in every age is related to the third station of the Manifestation of God -- "the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit."

So, Baha'u'llah was the return if the spirit of Jesus, not the return of the soul of Jesus, since Jesus and Baha'u'llah each had their own souls, just as they each had their own bodies.

Baha'u'llah was also the return of the Holy Spirit, for just as Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to humanity, Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. As I think I told you before, the Comforter is just a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. The Comforter is the Holy Spirit which the Father sends. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'ul'lah was another Comforter who the Father sent in Jesus' name.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

Are "manifestations" humans?

Yes but they are not ordinary humans. The following is from Wikipedia threw which I obtained a general definition of Manifestation of God according to the Baha'i Faith:

Throughout the ages, humanity’s spiritual, intellectual and moral capacities have been cultivated by the Founders of the great religions, among them Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and—in more recent times—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.

These Figures are not simply ordinary people with a greater knowledge than others. Rather they are Manifestations of God, Who have exerted an incomparable influence on the evolution of human society. While each of Them has a distinct individuality and a definite mission, the Manifestations of God all share in a single, divinely-ordained purpose—to “educate the souls of men, and refine the character of every living man…”

Problem is, how many false prophets, Messiahs, incarnations of God etc. have there been? So the... "not too bright" people that don't know on their own... get easily fooled by anyone claiming to be one of these messenger people.

I consider people in general have the capacity of “independent investigation of truth” which is a fundamental Baha’i principle in order to distinguish true prophets from false ones. Examining their teachings is a good place to start, along with ascertaining as much as you can from available resources their individual lives.

Of course, even true prophets had their detractors not the least of which was from parent religions as was the case with Judaism and Christianity. So despite Jesus claiming not to destroy the Law of Moses but to fulfill it the clerics of Judaism rejected Christ.

I would also find helpful examining at what stage of human development is when prophets appear when assessing if their teachings are helpful or a hindrance. As I see it the greatest hindrance humanity faces now is disunity on a planet contracted into one small neighborhood. Past religions and cultures often clash. I think a fundamental Baha’i view is that past religions constitute one single divine process referred to as progressive revelations from God at differing junctures of human development. So in such a context Baha’u’llah simply represents a prophet with the special mission of enabling humankind to take the final step of establishing world unity.

 

[Ancient Soul]

SEE!

Nothing ever changes with you!

There you go once again proclaiming who God can or cannot communicate with, based ENTIRELY upon what you were TOLD to believe by your religion.

But it's like I keep telling you, ALL religions have similar exclusiveness clauses built into them, inferring that ONLY THEY are the "right" religion and all others are the "wrong" religion.

Now you already admitted that you have NO PROOF that your "messenger" communicated with any "god", so your above proclamation is baseless, false, unfounded, nothing, even funny!

Besides, I repeatedly gave you a chance to produce clear and concise "messages" from your so-called "messenger" that defined/explained any true spiritual matters that I listed, and you FAILED to produce any. So you got nothing to say about anything spiritual but an unfounded OPINION.

No, I never proclaimed who God can or cannot communicate with, based ENTIRELY upon what I was TOLD to believe by my religion.

Trailblazer said: True, but only the Messengers of God that founded the great religions were spiritually evolved to the required level.
That is why God chose to communicate to them.

I only stated what I believe, according to my religion. Nobody told me to believe that, I chose to believe that.

Nobody tells God what to do, God already knows what to do.

So they just WHY do you keep insisting that your "beliefs" are actual "facts"????!!!!

As THAT is what you keep doing, making bombastically false claims that your religion tells you is "so", as if they are "facts". They are not as you have NO PROOF to back any of it up.

And also WHY do you keep erasing out of my posts you reply to everything you are too afraid to face?

I re-posted the ENTIRE post above so everyone can see how you keep running away from my challenge to provide this "proof".

 

[Bird123]

God’s Messenger presently has more pressing needs to take care of such as preventing humans from exterminating themselves and most of the planet! I guess you don’t watch the news! The disunity of the human race is profound despite Baha’u’llah throwing out a life raft!

I want it served up on a silver platter?

Humans have the capacity to examine how the physicality of things work themselves without God’s Messengers wasting their time with revealing “the conversion method of converting matter to energy so we can get off the fuels”! Would that save humans from hate, greed, corruption, which is the negation or failure to develop the spiritual qualities of love, sacrifice, and justice?

Unless justice is established in society how do you imagine all people having the opportunity to learn, grow and discover? What do you mean by memorizing? Memorizing what?

Are the messengers really teaching Unconditional Love when they teach people there are conditions that must be met or they fry??

I do not understand the need to sacrifice? What purpose does it serve?

Isn't your justice just an excuse to get payback? What is more important: Punishment or solving the problems?

What are these messengers really teaching? Sure there is some goodness, however that is not all they are teaching and it isn't a Higher Level.

Disunity??? With Global communications advancing all the time, people are closer to understanding each other, greater now, than at any other time.

Religion has corrupted your view to the point you can see only bad. They do this so that you seek them for help. It's not quite honest, is it. They are the ones who tell you that you are born flawed with something wrong with you.

Extermination is not going to happen. Kiddies can play havoc at times, however they will not be allowed to destroy the classroom.

If one chooses to see only one side, that narrow vision prevents one seeing Reality and the Real Truth. When one wanders from the Real Truth and Reality, one wanders from God. Ask yourself: Why do you choose this for yourself?

Society will protect itself. On the other hand, society's problem will not go away with mere payback. If one does the very same thing, how can one expect different results?

Crime will not be solved until they understand the causes and work at prevention. How much is being done? Simple labeling a person as evil is just another form of Hate. Religion likes we against they. This will never ever be God. What are they teaching you?

Life is about learning and growing. Everyone will do that. On the other hand. isn't it the Hungry student that tends to advance faster?? It doesn't matter what everyone else chooses to do. It's what each of us chooses to do that counts.

God has set it all up so that in the end BRAINS WIN. Look around you. That has been since the beginning of time. Why do you think God does this?? God wants us all to advance.

Don't you see? When one studies God's actions, it opens doors, knowledge and greater advancement.

Now, one can memorize holy books written by mankind, however you will be following only mankind. God's actions can not be altered by anyone. It is the only True Source of knowledge about God.

Beliefs are a powerful thing especially when one is taught to value beliefs above all else. One might be blind because they are served up so nicely on that silver platter, however what do you really have? Not much.

Few things worthwhile in life come easy. The wisdom and knowledge acquired through Discovery takes work!! Everyone likes short cuts with things being served up, but that isn't what wins the day.

That is what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Ancient Soul]

That is nothing "new." Christians also believe that all humans are children of God and that one God was responsible for creating all beings.

Unity of Mankind said:
"The Baha'i Faith is the only existent religion to my knowledge that proclaims "The oneness of God, the oneness of religion and the oneness of mankind."

Please show me where all three onenesses are to be found in another religion.

Who said I was making any decisions? I imply said what I did not find on Wikipedia.

Moreover, I said "with all due respect" which is more than you have shown me.

Like I keep on saying, ALL religions have their exclusiveness, just as your above quote clearly shows your Baha'i Faith to have. As it says:

"the oneness of religion"

Meaning the Baha'i Faith religion of course. For what your brainwashing won't let you see is what it really states. It says "religion", singular, and NOT plural "religions".

And whenever someone says "with all due respect", that's just a sarcastic way of saying ""with all due DIS-respect" .

 

[Ancient Soul]

Sorry, I did not want to post long quotes so I only posted the last part of the paragraph. Below is the whole paragraph so you can see the context.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

This is just as I pointed out in my other post to you, that it clearly states:

"Faith of God and His Religion"

Meaning the Baha'i Faith only as it AGAIN uses the word "religion", singular, and NOT plural "religions"

So it's just another example of the exclusiveness of your religion.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Religions are based upon individual MEN who make up their own "god" constructs to deceive people into looking to THEM/MEN for spiritual answers, rather than looking directly to God. But they have NO true spiritual answers to give, so always have bombastic gobbledygook to make it look like something clever is being said, when it's just meaningless bombastic gobbledygook.



God communicates DIRECTLY to all those souls/people who have spiritually evolved to the required level. ALL "messengers"/"founders" of religions are false "messengers".



It's common with ALL man made religions to have this form of exclusiveness, that THEIR religion is the ONLY "right" one, and all others are "false". A clear sign that everything in it are man made falsehoods.

Religions are not based upon individual men but rather what God reveals through His Messengers. They are necessary Mediators between two extremes; God and finite man. Many if not all personally sacrificed and suffered in the path of God to deliver God's Revelation which I think is clear evidence that refutes your opinion of them. Various cultures and civilizations even developed as a result of their contributions to humankind. As Jesus put it By their fruits ye shall know them and all of them reaped a healthy harvest!

Religions are ALL invented by self-serving spiritually clueless MEN, who write nothing but bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people into thinking there's "something" hidden in their bombastic gobbledygook, but there never is anything truly spiritual in their fake "messages" from "god". ALL they ever wanted was to have people look to THEM for answers as a ego boost, control over others, and a way to get their $$$, instead of looking directly to God for true spiritual answers.

So just exactly how does:

"all of them reaped a healthy harvest"

Have to do with "proving" anything?

So religions are very good at brainwashing, that's all it proves. The real test is how they ALL are lacking in giving out any true spiritual answers. Instead, they ALL contradict one another, spread hatred, division, exclusiveness, fill people's heads with total garbage, and leaves people spiritually and mentally broken.

Where is your proof God communicates directly to anyone whom you claim has spiritually evolved to the required level?

Thanks for proving my point on how ALL religions have left people spiritually and mentally broken. Now if you were not so spiritually broken, you would know that it IS quite possible to connect with and access the full spiritual abilities of your own soul, including it's direct connection to God.

Where is your proof that this Baha'u'llah "messenger" had communicated to any "god"?

On the other hand God-sent Messengers have historically proven the truthfulness of what they revealed because it always resulted in the betterment of all mankind.

That's not proof. A religion cannot be used to "prove" itself. Besides, you are overlooking the fact that historically religions only result in conflict and wars. With no proof religions "always resulted in the betterment of all mankind". You really need to research the history of religious bloodshed before making such silly claims.

Usually good governments have done the best job in the betterment of all mankind.

Baha'u'llah, Founder of the Baha'i Faith, proclaims the exact opposite of what you claim, namely that all religions are "right" as they all constitute living examples of the principle of progressive revelations from God especially fitted for human needs as humankind evolves spiritually.

That's the most ridiculous thing you've claimed so far. And you made plenty.

You are clearly not only spiritually ignorant, but religiously ignorant as well.

Have you ever studied even some of the various insane religions?

Now WHY would any so called "god" have all these self-proclaimed "messengers" start religions that spew out the most bombastic gobbledygook that contains NO true spiritual understandings, but only full of mythologies and inventing the strangest of "gods" and "goddesses", all contradicting themselves or making absolutely no sense what so ever?

 

[Trailblazer]

So they just WHY do you keep insisting that your "beliefs" are actual "facts"????!!!!

As THAT is what you keep doing, making bombastically false claims that your religion tells you is "so", as if they are "facts". They are not as you have NO PROOF to back any of it up.

Straw man. I never claimed I have FACTS or PROOF.

And also WHY do you keep erasing out of my posts you reply to everything you are too afraid to face?

I am not afraid of anything but God. I do not have time to respond to gobbledygook.

I re-posted the ENTIRE post above so everyone can see how you keep running away from my challenge to provide this "proof".

I told you about a dozen times I have no proof and that is why I never claimed to have FACTS.

 

[Trailblazer]

As it says:

"the oneness of religion"

Meaning the Baha'i Faith religion of course. For what your brainwashing won't let you see is what it really states. It says "religion", singular, and NOT plural "religions". .

There is only one religion, the eternal religion of God -- not plural religions...
The Baha'i Faith is simply the latest chapter in the book that is all ONE book.... Latest, not last chapter.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

 

[Trailblazer]

This is just as I pointed out in my other post to you, that it clearly states:

"Faith of God and His Religion"

Meaning the Baha'i Faith only as it AGAIN uses the word "religion", singular, and NOT plural "religions"

So it's just another example of the exclusiveness of your religion.

His Religion is the changeless Faith of God, NOT the Baha'i Faith.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

 

[PearlSeeker]

I believe that in the afterlife there will be souls who are more advanced that us and souls who are less advanced, and "maybe" we will be able to learn from the more advanced souls, if they choose to come down to our level and teach us what they know.

Yes. I believe there are also helpers in this world.

 

[Muffled]

That is unfortunate for the rest of us, because it makes you a threat to our well-being.

I believe you are a threat to your well being. We are harmless as doves.

 

[Muffled]

Well, it should matter if you follow Jesus.

I believe the fact is that all of this is going away and the Kingdom of God is what will be left, as Paul says in I Cor. 13.

 

[Muffled]

The problem is that religious beliefs do effect the people around them in a negative way. I'm sure the European Christians had religious reasons to justify enslaving people.

And why is that? Because Jesus is going to come back and cast all non-believers into hell? But then what is he going to do with the "nominal" Christians. Is he going to say "I never knew you" and cast them into hell too? I hope you're not one of those Christians that believes even good people in the other religions are going to be sent to hell. And then there is the Baha'is. They say Christ has come back. They are spreading their message of peace and unity. Is that a good thing, a bad thing, or it doesn't matter?

Lots of religious people go way overboard in their beliefs and are a threat. But then irreligious people or materialistic people are a threat too.

So has the Christ come back? Are the Baha'is correct in saying that God wants all people in all religions to come together in unity? Or, their prophet is not the return of Christ? And does that make them a danger and a threat to the rest of us?

I believe that part is correct.

I wonder who the non-believers will be with a visible Jesus? I believe those who love evil and won't repent are the ones who will be sent to Hell and that isn't even until a thousand years have passed.

I don't believe there are any good people. There are those who love evil and those who love good.

I believe anything that prevents a person from entering the Kingdom of God is a bad thing.

I believe He has absolutely not come back yet.

I believe so, in the sense of having Jesus as Lord and Savior.

I believe any false belief is capable of keeping people from the truth and endangering their future.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is only one religion, the eternal religion of God -- not plural religions...
The Baha'i Faith is simply the latest chapter in the book that is all ONE book.... Latest, not last chapter.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

There is not one book with each religion being a chapter. For one thing, Baha'is only include nine "major" religions. Where's the rest of the religions? Then, like with the foundation question, each chapter would need a major editing overhaul to make it fit with what the Baha'i Faith believes.