Is God or Religious Truth Real?

[Unity of Mankind]

Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions? My personal response to such a query is that yes, God is real, and that religion as a historical process coming from a real God is real, despite what might seem to be irreconcilable differences among different religions. We expect different conclusions from time to time as a result of scientific inquiry, so why could that not also be true when it comes to religion as a process?

I have concluded that the essence of God is unknowable. However, I have also concluded that God communicates to mankind through a series of divinely appointed Messengers such as occurred historically through a Moses, a Jesus Christ, a Mohammad and even a Krishna and a Buddha. I did not arrive at such a conclusion on my own but from what was revealed from Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

One observation insofar as religion in general is concerned is prophecy. What divides humanity within the medium of religion when it comes to prophecies, however, are differences of fallible human interpretation of the meaning of prophecies in various recorded Scriptures of different religions. For example, Jews had their own idea of how the prophecy of the coming of their Messiah would be fulfilled. Their expectation was that the throne of David would be exalted and the world would be led according to God’s will through Judaism. Christians had their own expectations regarding the return of Christ, according to what they understood in the New Testament to mean, except that they concluded there would be a literal end of the world. Is it possible that whatever prophecies are to be found in past religions have already been fulfilled? It is my personal conviction that such a fulfillment insofar as a Revelation from God is concerned through a Prophet has indeed already occurred.

My personal insistence when it comes to religion is that if it has no practical benefit for humankind on planet earth it is worthless. Whatever has been expressed through the medium of religion historically through its Founders was, in my view, especially fitted for human circumstances at the time and according to what stage of development humanity had attained. For example, world unity would not have been useful as an ideological principle before the entire world or planet had even been discovered. Meanwhile, different areas of the world had special needs necessitating divinely appointed Messengers to meet those individualized needs. However, the practical guidance offered by religions of the past does not suit the needs of the present time since the world in which we live has changed dramatically over time.

 

[Skwim]

Is there any reason to believe God is real

Not that I've seen.

or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions?

Not sure what you mean by "religion as a historical process," and why it would be affected by "different religions," but it's certainly true that religion has been part of the historical past.

My personal response to such a query is that yes, God is real, and that religion as a historical process coming from a real God is real, despite what might seem to be irreconcilable differences among different religions. We expect different conclusions from time to time as a result of scientific inquiry, so why could that not also be true when it comes to religion as a process?

Boy, you do throw terms around a bit. What do you mean by "religion as a process."


.

 

[Ebionite]

Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions?

Yes, one religion can validate another by taking an opposing position and failing to show any basis for it.

 

[PureX]

Is there any reason to believe God is real...

I don't think the questions you are asking matter. God is an idea, and ideas are real. Beyond that our minds cannot reach. So the questions that matter aren't about God's realness. They are about the effect of choosing to trust in that realness, or not to. And in how we are choosing to characterize the reality of God (or let others do it for us). Where we position ourselves relative to this great mystery will end up defining who we are as humans. And that's the real import, here.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions? My personal response to such a query is that yes, God is real, and that religion as a historical process coming from a real God is real, despite what might seem to be irreconcilable differences among different religions. We expect different conclusions from time to time as a result of scientific inquiry, so why could that not also be true when it comes to religion as a process?

I have concluded that the essence of God is unknowable. However, I have also concluded that God communicates to mankind through a series of divinely appointed Messengers such as occurred historically through a Moses, a Jesus Christ, a Mohammad and even a Krishna and a Buddha. I did not arrive at such a conclusion on my own but from what was revealed from Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

One observation insofar as religion in general is concerned is prophecy. What divides humanity within the medium of religion when it comes to prophecies, however, are differences of fallible human interpretation of the meaning of prophecies in various recorded Scriptures of different religions. For example, Jews had their own idea of how the prophecy of the coming of their Messiah would be fulfilled. Their expectation was that the throne of David would be exalted and the world would be led according to God’s will through Judaism. Christians had their own expectations regarding the return of Christ, according to what they understood in the New Testament to mean, except that they concluded there would be a literal end of the world. Is it possible that whatever prophecies are to be found in past religions have already been fulfilled? It is my personal conviction that such a fulfillment insofar as a Revelation from God is concerned through a Prophet has indeed already occurred.

My personal insistence when it comes to religion is that if it has no practical benefit for humankind on planet earth it is worthless. Whatever has been expressed through the medium of religion historically through its Founders was, in my view, especially fitted for human circumstances at the time and according to what stage of development humanity had attained. For example, world unity would not have been useful as an ideological principle before the entire world or planet had even been discovered. Meanwhile, different areas of the world had special needs necessitating divinely appointed Messengers to meet those individualized needs. However, the practical guidance offered by religions of the past does not suit the needs of the present time since the world in which we live has changed dramatically over time.

The entire premise is completely arbitrary.

So many conclusions, yet nothing can ever be used to justify those conclusions which consequently gets completely skipped over and/or avoided each and every time whenever somebody asks how their conclusion was arrived at.

It always comes across as this guy is a prophet, or this guy is a messenger of God.

Why?


Just because..... ? ........ and it inevitably trails off from there.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Yes, one religion can validate another by taking an opposing position and failing to show any basis for it.

Ah yes!

The religions war!

Your religion is false because it's different than mine, is not, is too, na ah, you worship demons, no I don't, YOU do... on, and on, and on...

 

[osgart]

I believe virtues are real. And people can hold fast to them. Whatsoever one conceives of and is meaningful to them takes on a reality. Ideas can be powerful things. They transform people.

 

[danieldemol]

Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions? My personal response to such a query is that yes, God is real, and that religion as a historical process coming from a real God is real, despite what might seem to be irreconcilable differences among different religions. We expect different conclusions from time to time as a result of scientific inquiry, so why could that not also be true when it comes to religion as a process?

I have concluded that the essence of God is unknowable. However, I have also concluded that God communicates to mankind through a series of divinely appointed Messengers such as occurred historically through a Moses, a Jesus Christ, a Mohammad and even a Krishna and a Buddha. I did not arrive at such a conclusion on my own but from what was revealed from Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

One observation insofar as religion in general is concerned is prophecy. What divides humanity within the medium of religion when it comes to prophecies, however, are differences of fallible human interpretation of the meaning of prophecies in various recorded Scriptures of different religions. For example, Jews had their own idea of how the prophecy of the coming of their Messiah would be fulfilled. Their expectation was that the throne of David would be exalted and the world would be led according to God’s will through Judaism. Christians had their own expectations regarding the return of Christ, according to what they understood in the New Testament to mean, except that they concluded there would be a literal end of the world. Is it possible that whatever prophecies are to be found in past religions have already been fulfilled? It is my personal conviction that such a fulfillment insofar as a Revelation from God is concerned through a Prophet has indeed already occurred.

My personal insistence when it comes to religion is that if it has no practical benefit for humankind on planet earth it is worthless. Whatever has been expressed through the medium of religion historically through its Founders was, in my view, especially fitted for human circumstances at the time and according to what stage of development humanity had attained. For example, world unity would not have been useful as an ideological principle before the entire world or planet had even been discovered. Meanwhile, different areas of the world had special needs necessitating divinely appointed Messengers to meet those individualized needs. However, the practical guidance offered by religions of the past does not suit the needs of the present time since the world in which we live has changed dramatically over time.

I’m glad you post it as an “or” question because that is precisely the way I see it.

God is real to me, but not a substantial number of things alleged to be “religious truth”

 

[Ancient Soul]

Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions? My personal response to such a query is that yes, God is real, and that religion as a historical process coming from a real God is real, despite what might seem to be irreconcilable differences among different religions. We expect different conclusions from time to time as a result of scientific inquiry, so why could that not also be true when it comes to religion as a process?

I have concluded that the essence of God is unknowable. However, I have also concluded that God communicates to mankind through a series of divinely appointed Messengers such as occurred historically through a Moses, a Jesus Christ, a Mohammad and even a Krishna and a Buddha. I did not arrive at such a conclusion on my own but from what was revealed from Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.

One observation insofar as religion in general is concerned is prophecy. What divides humanity within the medium of religion when it comes to prophecies, however, are differences of fallible human interpretation of the meaning of prophecies in various recorded Scriptures of different religions. For example, Jews had their own idea of how the prophecy of the coming of their Messiah would be fulfilled. Their expectation was that the throne of David would be exalted and the world would be led according to God’s will through Judaism. Christians had their own expectations regarding the return of Christ, according to what they understood in the New Testament to mean, except that they concluded there would be a literal end of the world. Is it possible that whatever prophecies are to be found in past religions have already been fulfilled? It is my personal conviction that such a fulfillment insofar as a Revelation from God is concerned through a Prophet has indeed already occurred.

My personal insistence when it comes to religion is that if it has no practical benefit for humankind on planet earth it is worthless. Whatever has been expressed through the medium of religion historically through its Founders was, in my view, especially fitted for human circumstances at the time and according to what stage of development humanity had attained. For example, world unity would not have been useful as an ideological principle before the entire world or planet had even been discovered. Meanwhile, different areas of the world had special needs necessitating divinely appointed Messengers to meet those individualized needs. However, the practical guidance offered by religions of the past does not suit the needs of the present time since the world in which we live has changed dramatically over time.

Hmm...

Defining the merits of a religion by it's prophecy. That's one I never heard of before.

To me ALL religions proclaim they are from "god" either directly or indirectly, and have all the spiritual answers.

So to me the litmus test should be how clear and concise any of them describes truly spiritual matters.

That being God, his spiritual nature, his laws, his judgment process, his plan for all souls, etc...

What is a soul?

Why is the spiritual realm/universe/Heaven separate from the physical realm/universe.

What is the spiritual realm/universe/Heaven like?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

The list goes on, but if they ALL came from God, then a religion should have clear and concise answers to all of them, the great WHY of it all and one's place in all of it, for what purpose.

Yet ALL of these religions from "god" have to clear answers to any of those spiritual questions and their so called "messengers" only throw out bombastic gibberish meant to bedazzle people into thinking they know something "special", that really offers nothing at all.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

God is real to me, but not a substantial number of things alleged to be “religious truth”

When it comes to "religious truth" I can understand your caution. Even if there is such a thing as substantial religious truth, historically, differences of opinions or interpretations by fallible followers of whatever was left by Major Prophets in Sacred Scriptures was clouded over. Some religions were left with Covenants designed to carry forward the authority of the Prophet in their absence at least until prophecies in them would be deemed fulfilled by the coming of another God-sent Prophet or of some other fulfillment deemed to be necessary.

In some religions such as Christianity a binding Covenant was left to follow. However religious Covenants are only good if they are recognized and or kept. I would use the Covenant in Christianity as an example of how in some cases it was not recognized or kept, according to H. M. Balyuzi in his book entitled Baha’u’llah. Here I will say followers of Baha'u'llah recognize the Primacy of Peter as Christ's Chief Disciple.

According to Balyuzi “Peter was given the sole and the exclusive right to pronounce between right and wrong, between truth and falsehood, between verity and error. But the primacy of Peter was observed and asserted only in name and not in fact, and even that not until some centuries had elapsed."

Of course Protestants and Catholics considered Peter differently when they considered the New Testament. I think Balyuzi points out the difference in the following paragraph: “Jesus conferred primacy upon Simon Bar-Jona, whom He named, Peter. ‘Thou art Peter,’ He told the fisherman from Galilee, ‘and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’ (Matthew 16: 18). Thus Jesus raised Peter above the rest of His disciples. It has been said that what Jesus meant was not setting up a station particular to Peter, but that He would build His Church upon Peter’s faith and confession. For just then this disciple had told his Master: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ (ibid.16: 16.). However, Jesus made His purpose unequivocally clear when He went on to say: ‘And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’(ibid. 16: 19.). Thus Catholics see the authority of Peter carried forward in the Papacy whereas Protestants do not and consider faith as the sole guide for Christianity.

 

[1213]

Is there any reason to believe God is real or that there is validity to religion as a historical process despite there being different religions? ...

The reasons for me to believe God is real are for example that I can’t believe people could have done the Bible without God’s influence. Bible has information and goodness that I think can’t be from humans only.

 

[Trailblazer]

The reasons for me to believe God is real are for example that I can’t believe people could have done the Bible without God’s influence. Bible has information and goodness that I think can’t be from humans only.

I agree, the Bible had to be directed by a force greater than man, and that concurs with Baha'i beliefs.

Referring to God, Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is "His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures."
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

 

[Unity of Mankind]

Defining the merits of a religion by it's prophecy. That's one I never heard of before.

So if prophecies come true what does that say to you?

The following are excerpts from a Tablet of Baha'u'llah to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany: "O king of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High . . . O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory." And it came to pass that, indeed, Berlin was covered in gore in both World Wars I and II.

Indeed, other Manifestations of God or Prophets predicted future events. Consider Jesus in the New Testament observing to His disciples one day the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, that not a stone would be left upon a stone. Only the outer wall separate from the Temple was left known today as the Wailing Wall.

So from a Baha'i perspective all such Manifestations of God such as a Christ or a Baha'u'llah are of a different order of creation.

So to me the litmus test should be how clear and concise any of them describes truly spiritual matters.

By them you are referring to such as Jesus or Baha'u'llah? Unless, without bias, you examine their respective Revelations from God how would you know whether or not they meet ... "the litmus test ... " of "clear and concise descriptions of "spiritual matters"?

Why is the spiritual realm/universe/Heaven separate from the physical realm/universe.

According Baha'i Teachings there is no real separation of "the spiritual realm/universe/Heaven ..." as you put it. Consider the following Baha'i Teachings of this as follows: “The spiritual world is like unto the phenomenal world. They are the exact counterpart of each other. Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.” The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 10

What is the spiritual realm/universe/Heaven like?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

The list goes on, but if they ALL came from God, then a religion should have clear and concise answers to all of them, the great WHY of it all and one's place in all of it, for what purpose.

Unlike what is contained in previous Revelations from God the most recent Revelation from God through Baha'u'llah contains answers to all of the questions you raise.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

The reasons for me to believe God is real are for example that I can’t believe people could have done the Bible without God’s influence. Bible has information and goodness that I think can’t be from humans only.

I agree!

 

[Unity of Mankind]

Not sure what you mean by "religion as a historical process," and why it would be affected by "different religions," but it's certainly true that religion has been part of the historical past.

What I mean by "religion as a historical process" is that it originally comes to us periodically through different Prophets, or as Baha'is refer to them, Manifestations of God.

However, when fallible human beings interacted or interpreted what was left by such Prophets they introduced concepts which were foreign to the original message such as, for example, religious clerics in Christianity imagining the concept of Original Sin when they considered the Old Testament story of Adam and Eve in the Genesis story of the Old Testament.

Furthermore, consider the injustice of the concept of Original Sin, that the imagined father of the human race committed a sin and that the consequences of it was passed down and inherited by his offspring! Today if a court convicted a father of a criminal act would it also hold his son responsible merely because he is genetically related?

What was ignored in Christianity is that the coming of another than Jesus was foretold by the prediction of the coming of the Son of Man rather than Jesus Himself, Who would testify of Him and bring to remembrance whatsoever He, Jesus, had originally brought to them. That is precisely what Baha'u'llah did.

 

[Ancient Soul]

So if prophecies come true what does that say to you?

The following are excerpts from a Tablet of Baha'u'llah to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany: "O king of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High . . . O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory." And it came to pass that, indeed, Berlin was covered in gore in both World Wars I and II.

That's the usual twisting of prophecies I've come to expect.

This Baha'u'llah wrote to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany.

A quick check proves your above alleged prophecy "fulfillment' to be a falsehood.

Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany 22 March 1797 – 9 March 1888
WW I - July 28 1914 to 11 November 1918
WW 2 - 1939 to 1945

So Kaiser Wilhelm I was long gone by WW 1 & WW 2.

You are BUSTED!

Indeed, other Manifestations of God or Prophets predicted future events. Consider Jesus in the New Testament observing to His disciples one day the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, that not a stone would be left upon a stone. Only the outer wall separate from the Temple was left known today as the Wailing Wall.

ALL of Jesus' prophecies were supposed to have been fulfilled WITHIN the lifetime of his disciples. So what you are claiming falls WAY outside of that time frame. His disciples were l-o-n-g g-o-n-e by the time that happened. So some honesty would be appreciated in the future.

By them you are referring to such as Jesus or Baha'u'llah? Unless, without bias, you examine their respective Revelations from God how would you know whether or not they meet ... "the litmus test ... " of "clear and concise descriptions of "spiritual matters"?

Sorry for confusing you. I forgot that you belong to the Baha'u'llah religion so have no idea what "clear and concise" means.

I mean that God has always given me answers to my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. And NOT in all that bombastic gobbledygook that Baha'u'llah spews out just to bedazzle people into thinking it's something "important", but has no true spiritual meaning what so ever. And the same for jesus, that in all of the bible's 774,746 some words in it, there is not one thing truly spiritual to be learned from any of it.

According Baha'i Teachings there is no real separation of "the spiritual realm/universe/Heaven ..." as you put it. Consider the following Baha'i Teachings of this as follows: “The spiritual world is like unto the phenomenal world. They are the exact counterpart of each other. Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.” The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 10

You just proved to me that his "teachings" are false. For God has shown me the separation of the spiritual and physical realms/universes and the purpose of the separation.

Unlike what is contained in previous Revelations from God the most recent Revelation from God through Baha'u'llah contains answers to all of the questions you raise.

No it doesn't.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

So Kaiser Wilhelm I was long gone by WW 1 & WW 2.

Baha'u'llah's prophecy about Berlin had nothing to do with it being fulfilled during the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I anymore than the prophecy of Jesus Christ as recorded in the NT that the beautiful Jewish Temple His disciples marveled at would be destroyed to such an extent not a stone was left upon a stone, which was indeed fulfilled in 70 AD.

Lastly, the entire point I would make is that in both cases the prophecies of both Jesus and Baha'u'llah ultimately came true.

 

[Unity of Mankind]

I mean that God has always given me answers to my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. And NOT in all that bombastic gobbledygook that Baha'u'llah spews out just to bedazzle people into thinking it's something "important", but has no true spiritual meaning what so ever. And the same for jesus, that in all of the bible's 774,746 some words in it, there is not one thing truly spiritual to be learned from any of it.

Why would a real God single you out to guide only you, one on one, and leave all the rest of mankind in the dark?

Given your personal experience you claim you have had with God why don't you lead all mankind? What do you have to offer that is superior to what the Manifestations of God, such as what a Moses, a Jesus Christ or a Mohammad brought as a Revelation of God for all of mankind? They have a track record in a historical context and to this day a following!

 

[Ancient Soul]

Baha'u'llah's prophecy about Berlin had nothing to do with it being fulfilled during the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I anymore than the prophecy of Jesus Christ as recorded in the NT that the beautiful Jewish Temple His disciples marveled at would be destroyed to such an extent not a stone was left upon a stone, which was indeed fulfilled in 70 AD.

Lastly, the entire point I would make is that in both cases the prophecies of both Jesus and Baha'u'llah ultimately came true.

Geez...

Don't try using deception on me. You stated:

"The following are excerpts from a Tablet of Baha'u'llah to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany: "O king of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High . . . O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory." And it came to pass that, indeed, Berlin was covered in gore in both World Wars I and II."

Now there it is as plain as day. He was writing to Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany and said "O king of Berlin!" and later "inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you". So he was addressing Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany and nobody else. So the threat would have to be carried out within the lifetime of Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany for it to fulfilled prophecy. It wasn't.

The same for jesus, ALL of his prophecies were to be fulfilled within the lifetime of his direct disciples. They weren't.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Why would a real God single you out to guide only you, one on one, and leave all the rest of mankind in the dark?

Given your personal experience you claim you have had with God why don't you lead all mankind? What do you have to offer that is superior to what the Manifestations of God, such as what a Moses, a Jesus Christ or a Mohammad brought as a Revelation of God for all of mankind? They have a track record in a historical context and to this day a following!

Just so you know, it's a poor reflection on you to use deceit to make it look like you are "winning" a debate. It will only make you look like a sore loser to everyone reading these posts. Making up lies about me and then arrogantly demanding I answer to them, is deceitful in the extreme.

Now the statement you spazed out on with your straw man reply was this:

"I mean that God has always given me answers to my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. And NOT in all that bombastic gobbledygook that Baha'u'llah spews out just to bedazzle people into thinking it's something "important", but has no true spiritual meaning what so ever. And the same for jesus, that in all of the bible's 774,746 some words in it, there is not one thing truly spiritual to be learned from any of it."

Now stick to the matters of debate.

So the point is, if these so-called "messengers" are from some "god", WHY is it that they always spew out bombastic gobbledygook that contains NO true spiritual answers?