Is God forgiving?

[Blogger]

This is really simple. To satisfy God's justice a price has to be paid. Justice is, after all, a satisfaction of the law. Yet, those who accept Christ do not pay the price themselves. Therein is the forgiveness.

Where does it say in the Bible that for God's justice to be satisfied a price has to be paid? Muslims know several attributes of God per the Quran, I'd expect Christians to back up what they believe about God's attributes by what the Bible says.Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Blogger]

Good morning Blogger,

However, I'm afraid that my question has remained unanswered. What I was trying to ascertain had more to do with the price that Allah demands for forgiveness as a measure of the seriousness he holds for sin. So perhaps I will be a little more specific:

Does Allah require perfect repentance for sin?

Does Allah hold the exact same standard for everyone (regarding repentance)?

I do not know if 'perfect' is the right word, what I know is that repentence must meet certan standards to be forgiven. Standards include sincere remorse, sincere intent not to repeat etc.

In Islam not all sins are similar in the sight of Allah so not all sins will require same standard. Minor sins can be forgiven by even in the course of performing acts of worship. For example, when one takes ablution with intent of praying the act of ablution washes away minor sins.

 

[Blogger]

Hi lava!

Jesus said before he died ''forgive them father for they know not what they have done''

Ignorance is bad. We need forgiveness for being ignorant.

HEHHE.....god's ways are strange indeed.

The Lutheran Church's position on the Trinity is that there are 3 aspects to God, father, son and spirit and they are all equal in power and majesty. Why would Jesus ask an equal 'part' to forgive others when He is God himself and nobody would be above him per Lutheran's position on Trinity?

Some Christian literature even say that on Judgmenet Day Jesus would be the judge and not the father, so why would he ask somebody else to forgive if He is the JUdge.

Some billboards advertising Churches say 'Jesus still forgives sins'- why would He ask somebody else to 'forgive them..' when he himself is the forgiver?

 

[Heneni]

The Lutheran Church's position on the Trinity is that there are 3 aspects to God, father, son and spirit and they are all equal in power and majesty. Why would Jesus ask an equal 'part' to forgive others when He is God himself and nobody would be above him per Lutheran's position on Trinity?

Because jesus (while on this earth) was reliant on his father while in human form, therefore it was the only time in 'history' that he was unequal to his father. Before the creation he was not reliant on his father, but was self-existant and self-sustaining.

Some Christian literature even say that on Judgmenet Day Jesus would be the judge and not the father, so why would he ask somebody else to forgive if He is the JUdge.

Interesting question, and also why would he ask us to forgive and tell us we are not to judge? Is the one who forgives the judge? Or is the one who forgives naturally not acting as a judge. A judge cant forgive a murderer he has to by law punish. So really forgiveness is not about judging wouldnt you say?

Heneni

 

[Blogger]

Because jesus (while on this earth) was reliant on his father while in human form, therefore it was the only time in 'history' that he was unequal to his father. Before the creation he was not reliant on his father, but was self-existant and self-sustaining.

Heneni

I assume u consider Jesus now equal to the father, at this point who is to be worshipped. The father of the son?

 

[Heneni]

I assume u consider Jesus now equal to the father, at this point who is to be worshipped. The father of the son?

Yes i know this is one of those 'sticky' bits when it comes to christians and muslims. I'm thinking you already know what my position is on that....

Naturally jesus is to be worshipped just like the father, because, they are both god, because they both have the same weight of glory.

Heneni

 

[Blogger]

Interesting question, and also why would he ask us to forgive and tell us we are not to judge? Is the one who forgives the judge? Or is the one who forgives naturally not acting as a judge. A judge cant forgive a murderer he has to by law punish. So really forgiveness is not about judging wouldnt you say?

Heneni

A judge can forgive without breaking any law. let me explain how, the Constitutions of many countries give the President the right to forgive a convict, that allows him to be the ultimate judge in his country.

So we see both, judgement has been passed (eg Sup Court JUdge) and forgiveness is applied by getting pardon from President .

If man can forgive those who kill other creations, why cannot God forgive those who wronged His own creation?

 

[Blogger]

Yes i know this is one of those 'sticky' bits when it comes to christians and muslims. I'm thinking you already know what my position is on that....

Naturally jesus is to be worshipped just like the father, because, they are both god, because they both have the same weight of glory.

Heneni

So the 'object' of your worship is at least 2?

Doesnt 'both god' make 2 gods?

 

[Heneni]

A judge can forgive without breaking any law. let me explain how, the Constitutions of many countries give the President the right to forgive a convict, that allows him to be the ultimate judge in his country.

So we see both, judgement has been passed (eg Sup Court JUdge) and forgiveness is applied by getting pardon from President .

If man can forgive those who kill other creations, why cannot God forgive those who wronged His own creation?

Yes, but the president wasnt the judge in the courtroom..... But i understand that you are saying that a judge can say you guilty and then the president can come and aquit you. But i think that its very unlikely that the son and the father have different standards wouldnt you say?

Heneni

 

[Blogger]

Naturally jesus is to be worshipped just like the father, because, they are both god, because they both have the same weight of glory.

Heneni

Why is one 'the father' and ther other 'the son' if they have the same weight? Any way to tell who (person) was created by the father and who was created by the son? Or do u believe each creation is the result of 'joint effort'.

In order to give them equal weight, is a Chrsiatian suppoed to pray to them in alternating sequence,to the father this Sunday and to the son next Sunday?

 

[Blogger]

Yes, but the president wasnt the judge in the courtroom..... But i understand that you are saying that a judge can say you guilty and then the president can come and aquit you. But i think that its very unlikely that the son and the father have different standards wouldnt you say?

Heneni

I used that analogy to show that being found guilty does not necessarily require punishment because the court/judge scenario has been used by many Christians to make an argument that God cannot forgive without the cross/punishment.

On standards it depends on who we are talking about. If we are talking about humans it can happen, that is why at times u see children who are simply not reflective of their parents.

On God, I believe in one God only who has no father, no son, no aunt, no cousin.

 

[Heneni]

Why is one 'the father' and ther other 'the son' if they have the same weight? Any way to tell who (person) was created by the father and who was created by the son? Or do u believe each creation is the result of 'joint effort'.

In order to give them equal weight, is a Chrsiatian suppoed to pray to them in alternating sequence,to the father this Sunday and to the son next Sunday?

Weight in glory, means they have the same glory. In heaven titles like son and father, dont make one subservant, that is what we do on earth. In heaven all that have the same glory are of the same kind. Angels have a certain glory other angels have a slightly higher position because they have more glory. So really the 'son' and 'father' relationship is for us to understand how jesus related to father god while here on earth. But in the beginning was the word (jesus) and the word was with god (the father) and the word was god.

The whole 'father and son' relationship was introduced so that we can understand the role of jesus and the father while jesus was in his human form. And also that we will ultimately understand our relationship with god while in human form. While in human form we have nowhere near the glory of god, and therefore are dependant and submissive to god.

Paul says that we dont know what we will be in heaven. Some people think we will be angels, some think we will be humans only better, but what will really determine what we are is the glory we will have and that will put us in relation to other celestial beings, not our title. For example angels are not called sons, but naturally they should be considered as such having been created like adam was. But god never calls them sons. So....really its about the weight of glory of a being in heaven. Satan we know was pretty high up in rank, having the most spledid of glory! But not the same glory as jesus or the father or the HS.

Heneni

 

[Blogger]

The whole 'father and son' relationship was introduced so that we can understand the role of jesus and the father while jesus was in his human form. And also that we will ultimately understand our relationship with god while in human form. While in human form we have nowhere near the glory of god, and therefore are dependant and submissive to god.
Heneni

Why are terms 'father' and 'son' used even today during prayers if it was relevant when Jesus was in human form?

Since 'Jesus is to be worshipped just like the father' what is a Christin supposed to do to worship them equally, not one more than the other.

Who forgives and has ultimate decision on forgivenesins? The father or the son?

 

[Blogger]

The whole 'father and son' relationship was introduced so that we can understand the role of jesus and the father while jesus was in his human form. And also that we will ultimately understand our relationship with god while in human form. While in human form we have nowhere near the glory of god, and therefore are dependant and submissive to god.

Heneni

Does the Bible say why the son had to pay for the sins of humans and not the father since they are equal?

Since you say they are equal, why didnt both of them come to die on the cross? It seems to me that the son would be more significant than the father because the son 'paid the price', I cannot imagine anything more superior than the 'price of salvation'.

 

[Blogger]

Paul says that we dont know what we will be in heaven.
Heneni

Is this the word of Paul or word of God?

If word of God would it mean God did not know?

If word of Paul is the Bible word of God?

British Bishops have said word of Paul in the Bible is literally word of Paul, do u agree with them?

 

[Bick]

The whole Dying on the Cross and forgiveness teaching is fraught with misunderstandings and individual interpretations.

The two concepts, of Jesus dying, and the forgiveness of our sins, have become inextricably linked in peoples minds; to the extent that they have to fall back on whatever their own Church states on the matter to under stand it at all.

I would maintain that both these facts are true.
Jesus Did die on the Cross,
And God does forgive our sins.
There is however a proviso...
We must repent and ask forgiveness.

The exact nature of the link is less important than those three facts.

MY COMMENTS: "Repent" means "aftermind' or "change you mind".

If one accepts, believes in Christ as Lord and saviour, he is a new creation; a member of the Body of Christ.

And how wonderful that God was, in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them.

We, as ambassadors of Christ, God making his appeal through us, we beseech unbelievers to be reconciled to God. Ref. 2 Cor. 5:19=20.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Where does it say in the Bible that for God's justice to be satisfied a price has to be paid? Muslims know several attributes of God per the Quran, I'd expect Christians to back up what they believe about God's attributes by what the Bible says.Correct me if I am wrong.

It could be a simple as, "The wages of sin is death," from Romans.

 

[Falvlun]

This is really simple. To satisfy God's justice a price has to be paid. Justice is, after all, a satisfaction of the law. Yet, those who accept Christ do not pay the price themselves. Therein is the forgiveness.

Hm.

I'm still not following the whole a price-must-be-paid for justice to be satisfied before God is able to forgive humans. I would say Christ paying the price is merciful; but it is not necessarily forgiving.

Generally forgiveness is an act of selflessness of the forgiver and has no strings attached. Justice and forgiveness really are not necessarily connected concepts and are often actually mutually exclusive.

If you forgive someone, that means you absolve them of their debt to you. If the debt no longer exists, then why must it still be paid (through justice)?

 

[Falvlun]

To continue my slightly disjointed train of thought, God (in Christianity and Islam at least) is omnipotent, meaning he created this law. He also set the price for justice to be adequately served. Why would you set the price so high that the transgressor would never have a hope of adequately fulfilling it?

It still does not make sense to me how it can be considered just to punish someone or something else for your wrongdoing. That would, in any other circumstance, be considered a miscarriage of justice. Why is this an exception?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Hm.

I'm still not following the whole a price-must-be-paid for justice to be satisfied before God is able to forgive humans. I would say Christ paying the price is merciful; but it is not necessarily forgiving.

Generally forgiveness is an act of selflessness of the forgiver and has no strings attached. Justice and forgiveness really are not necessarily connected concepts and are often actually mutually exclusive.

If you forgive someone, that means you absolve them of their debt to you. If the debt no longer exists, then why must it still be paid (through justice)?

i think you may be having difficulty understanding because you may be trying to linc payment and forgiveness together. That God offers a law shows that He demands retribution for the breaking of the law. That man no longer needs to make that retribution for his indescretions is forgiveness.