Is God forgiving?

[Blogger]

According to Christian teachings Jesus paid for sins by dying on the cross.

Since a payment has been done how can God claim to be forgiving. If somebody owes you a right and he or a third party pays you can you justifiably claim to have forgiven your debtor?

Did Jesus punish himself to forgive humans in the context of him being God? Some Christians tell me if there is no punishment there is no justice, if I am wronged would I not be doing justice by simply forgiving?

When I compare this to God and forgiveness in Islam I see that He does not need to be paid anything and He forgives those who repent with sincerety. To me this fits the defination of forgiveness.

It seems to me Christianity makes not unforgiving to justify the 'significance of the cross' while undermining God's character of forgiveness.

What is lacking in my analysis?


Thanks!

 

[Michael Turner]

Hello Blogger,

God is forgiving because he personally pardoned and erased the sins of wretched men, leaving them blameless and making them perfect in Christ.

You ask how this compares to a god who does not ask for a price to be paid. Well, in that case man would have to repent perfectly on his own and prove himself through works of righteousness that he is worthy of forgiveness and salvation. Yet fallen man is incapable of this and all of his efforts fall short. Hence the need for a savior, a messiah. Hence the need for Jesus Christ.

 

[Michael Turner]

Oops. Not sure how that frowning face ended up on my last post. I'm a happy guy, really...

 

[Blogger]

Hello Blogger,

You ask how this compares to a god who does not ask for a price to be paid. Well, in that case man would have to repent perfectly on his own and prove himself through works of righteousness that he is worthy of forgiveness and salvation. Yet fallen man is incapable of this and all of his efforts fall short. Hence the need for a savior, a messiah. Hence the need for Jesus Christ.

Hi MIchael,

Thanks for your answer.

If we focus more on forgiveness. In Islam in order to be forgiven one must have remorse, make sincere effort not to repeat past sins, strive to be rightous and ask for forgivessness. That is the ingredient to wipe out past errors. Nobody gets to be punished, have to go through pain etc as a condition of getting forgivessness.

From Christian perspective, since Jesus did pay a painful price on the cross and literatures emphanise the 'payment' how can God justify to be considered forgiving when His wrath has been exercised?

God created man weak and there will be shortcomings here and there. If trully man cannot be righteous why does Christianity have the commandments? Why would God instruct men to obey what is absolutely impossible?

Thanks!

 

[cardero]

Is God forgiving?
There is nothing one can do to offend GOD.

 

[Blogger]

cardero

so r u saying the concept of sin is a hoax?

 

[Dunemeister]

If we focus more on forgiveness. In Islam in order to be forgiven one must have remorse, make sincere effort not to repeat past sins, strive to be rightous and ask for forgivessness. That is the ingredient to wipe out past errors. Nobody gets to be punished, have to go through pain etc as a condition of getting forgivessness.

When Muslims go on Hajj (to Mecca, say), do they not sacrifice a goat or a lamb? What's the purpose of doing so? Has it nothing to do with sin and forgiveness? I ask this because the practice was closely connected to sin and forgiveness in Moses' law.

From Christian perspective, since Jesus did pay a painful price on the cross and literatures emphanise the 'payment' how can God justify to be considered forgiving when His wrath has been exercised?

He is forgiving to us. I don't have to do (because I can't do) anything to solicit or earn God's forgiveness. God's justice is satisfied. All that's left for me is to repent and be faithful.

God created man weak and there will be shortcomings here and there. If trully man cannot be righteous why does Christianity have the commandments? Why would God instruct men to obey what is absolutely impossible?

Who says God has done so? But let's leave that aside and assume it's true. In that case, why would God give these commandments? Well, perhaps because, given our fallen condition, we cannot know what is right and wrong without them. Or perhaps there are many competing claims about what is right and wrong, and God wants an "authorized list" of commandments out there to allay confusion. Or perhaps God uses the law as a prod to our conscience to remind us that we are in fact fallen and continue to be dependent upon God's grace to fulfill the laws. Or perhaps God intends that not only the law but also other mechanisms (for instance, the instigation of the Holy Spirit) produce righteousness. Or perhaps.....

 

[Madhuri]

cardero

so r u saying the concept of sin is a hoax?

From a non-Abrahamic perspective, there is no such thing as 'evil', there is only ignorance. Sin is an illusion. Good and bad exist, but only the the realms of our human mind/perception. And this universe is limitless. God is beyond illusion, nothing really bothers Him. And nothing is really against him because everything, even that which we percieve as bad, comes from Him. Nothing exists without Him.

 

[cardero]

Do not sacrifice yourself or your spiritual or creative potential out of fear that I will disapprove. For no matter what you do, you will not offend ME or diminish MY LOVE toward you.

HELLO IT’s ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Religion
Pg: 44

I believe that there are certain boundaries that humans have outlined for themselves. These restrictions when breached can cause offense or insult to this individual. Depending on the importance of who this individual is in a person’s life determines whether one will receive or accept forgiveness. So in response to your reply, sin is not a hoax, it exists, I just believe that it is man-made.

There is not anything we can do or say to GOD that will offend, insult or that would warrant forgiveness from Him.

 

[cardero]

From a non-Abrahamic perspective, there is no such thing as 'evil', there is only ignorance. Sin is an illusion. Good and bad exist, but only the the realms of our human mind/perception. And this universe is limitless. God is beyond illusion, nothing really bothers Him. And nothing is really against him because everything, even that which we percieve as bad, comes from Him. Nothing exists without Him.

Madhuri beat me to it. Nicely Done. Frubals.

 

[Blogger]

When Muslims go on Hajj (to Mecca, say), do they not sacrifice a goat or a lamb? What's the purpose of doing so? Has it nothing to do with sin and forgiveness? I ask this because the practice was closely connected to sin and forgiveness in Moses' law.

The Hajj cleanses the one making the trip so that is yet another of many ways in which Muslims get forgiveness.THis method does not need to be practiced by those who cannot afford the trip. Slaughter of the lamb symbolizes what happened to Abraham, he obeyed the command of God, MUslims do not believe that he did that to pay God for his sins but he was simply being obedient to his commandment.




He is forgiving to us. I don't have to do (because I can't do) anything to solicit or earn God's forgiveness. God's justice is satisfied. All that's left for me is to repent and be faithful.

If God ordered men to keep the commandments and if men claim they cannot be kept isnt that an unfair God? We dont ask children to do what is outside their abilities, do we?

When our children strive and deliver what is expected of them dont we forgive their shortcomings without making them pay for the shortcomings. Why a loving God would demand to exert his wrath as the only way.

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Save us from the time of trial and deliver us fOur Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Save us from the time of trial and deliver us from evil. rom evil.

From this 'LOrd's prayer' above, forgivess from God is compared to our forgiveness of those who wrong us. If we are wronged and forgive we actually get praised by those who know we have forgiven but why do Christians argue that if God forgives without the wrath of the cross that is injustice? I am struggling to grasp why if God is wronged and forgives that amounts to injustice. Also trying to reconcile why should he be considered forgiving if Jesus paid the debt. I cannot pay my creditor in full and the creditor claim to have forgiven me, can he?

 

[Dunemeister]

If God ordered men to keep the commandments and if men claim they cannot be kept isnt that an unfair God? We dont ask children to do what is outside their abilities, do we?

No, it doesn't mean God is unfair. God promises Christians his Holy Spirit to enable them to keep his commandments. The Holy Spirit is given in response to our faith in Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and as this world's true Lord. That's not unfair.

And yes, sometimes we do ask children to do things beyond their abilities. It's how they grow and mature. That's not unfair, that's called parenting.

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Save us from the time of trial and deliver us fOur Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Save us from the time of trial and deliver us from evil. rom evil.

From this 'LOrd's prayer' above, forgivess from God is compared to our forgiveness of those who wrong us.

It's not compared. One of the signs that we have received God's forgiveness is that we forgive others.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Ezekiel 18

20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.

23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

these numbers from Ezekiel 18 are agreeing with islam principles, Allah is all-forgiving,snice he legislate repentance, the door is open for all the sinners to repent and return to his straight path.

repentance terms are:
1.to quit doing the sin.
2.to feel regretful(shame) about doing the sin.
3.to promise not to do the sin again.
4. if the sin violated other's rights , you must ask forgivness from them,and return
thier rights back.


christians has many symbolic explination for the "assumed" crucifixion, anyway it doesn't seems reasonable, since Jesus himself declared explicitly that if some one obyed the commandment he will get the eternal life.

Mat 19:16
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Ithink it's enough, the symbolic explination makes headache sometimes.

 

[McBell]

What is lacking in my analysis?

Lets see...
An all powerful, all knowing deity makes man,
sets up rules that his being all knowing tells him that man cannot possibly follow,
sends himself as a man to "pay" for the sins that he already knew man had no choice but to commit,
dies on the cross to make said "payment' knowing that he would be resurrected,
is resurrected...


Of course, this is assuming that you are one of the millions who believe that god is all powerful, all knowing, etc.

 

[Heneni]

According to Christian teachings Jesus paid for sins by dying on the cross.

Since a payment has been done how can God claim to be forgiving. If somebody owes you a right and he or a third party pays you can you justifiably claim to have forgiven your debtor?

Did Jesus punish himself to forgive humans in the context of him being God? Some Christians tell me if there is no punishment there is no justice, if I am wronged would I not be doing justice by simply forgiving?

When I compare this to God and forgiveness in Islam I see that He does not need to be paid anything and He forgives those who repent with sincerety. To me this fits the defination of forgiveness.

It seems to me Christianity makes not unforgiving to justify the 'significance of the cross' while undermining God's character of forgiveness.

What is lacking in my analysis?


Thanks!

Hi there. I'd like to ask you a question. What sins did god forgive us for? Was it the sins we committed against each other, or was it the sin we committed against him.

 

[Dunemeister]

Of course, this is assuming that you are one of the millions who believe that god is all powerful, all knowing, etc.

Of course, if it's true, it's true regardless what you assume....

 

[McBell]

Of course, if it's true, it's true regardless what you assume....

If what is true?
I merely gave a summary based upon the beliefs preached to me by the members of a local church.
I also found out that there are several other churches that preach the same thing.

Funny thing though, for some reason, they do not like the way I word it.....

Or course, I understand that not everyone believes the exact same thing.
Thus the reason why there are so many different "denominations" based off the Bible.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The whole Dying on the Cross and forgiveness teaching is fraught with misunderstandings and individual interpretations.

The two concepts, of Jesus dying, and the forgiveness of our sins, have become inextricably linked in peoples minds; to the extent that they have to fall back on whatever their own Church states on the matter to under stand it at all.

I would maintain that both these facts are true.
Jesus Did die on the Cross,
And God does forgive our sins.
There is however a proviso...
We must repent and ask forgiveness.

The exact nature of the link is less important than those three facts.

 

[Heneni]

I think it is useful to examine which sins god is willing to forgive us for (forgave us for) and which ones is a no go.

In the bible we have the account of Ananias who was struck dead after he lied to God

Acts 8:3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

Ananias did not recover from that lie. He was struck dead and so was his wife.

(Bear in mind this is after jesus died on the cross for forgiveness of sins)

Heneni

 

[sojourner]

According to Christian teachings Jesus paid for sins by dying on the cross.

Since a payment has been done how can God claim to be forgiving. If somebody owes you a right and he or a third party pays you can you justifiably claim to have forgiven your debtor?

Did Jesus punish himself to forgive humans in the context of him being God? Some Christians tell me if there is no punishment there is no justice, if I am wronged would I not be doing justice by simply forgiving?

When I compare this to God and forgiveness in Islam I see that He does not need to be paid anything and He forgives those who repent with sincerety. To me this fits the defination of forgiveness.

It seems to me Christianity makes not unforgiving to justify the 'significance of the cross' while undermining God's character of forgiveness.

What is lacking in my analysis?


Thanks!

Now you know why Substitutionary Atonement does not work. Your analysis is, IMO, correct. Substitutionary Atonement is by no means the only (or the most prevalent) doctrine.