Is genocide ok if God tells you to do it?

[JMorris]

i had this debate in another thread, but that one seems to have vanished, so i thought id create this one.

when conquering Palestine, the Hebrews committed genocide against a number of peoples there. and this wasnt long after he gave them the commandments telling them not to kill.

of course i dont believe this, i believe its an excuse the Hebrews used to excuse their genocide. but, for the sake of argument, lets say the order did come from god, did that make it ok? shouldnt an order like this be a sure sign that your god is evil? or does having him on your side matter more?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Have you ever heard of the strawman fallacy?

 

[JMorris]

Have you ever heard of the strawman fallacy?

no, why? is that what your doing here?

whats your actual opinion?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

no, why? is that what your doing here?

whats your actual opinion?

haha, no.

The strawman fallacy is when you misrepresent someone else's beliefs (or arguments) in a way that is impossible for them to defend.

 

[JMorris]

haha, no.

The strawman fallacy is when you misrepresent someone else's beliefs (or arguments) in a way that is impossible for them to defend.

i was being sarcastic, i know what it means......

and i dont see how this is a strawman. how else am i to present it? the Hebrews committed genocide and god told them to do it....... how else am i to present that?

or am i not supposed to be bringing this up at all?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

i was being sarcastic, i know what it means......

and i dont see how this is a strawman. how else am i to present it? the Hebrews committed genocide and god told them to do it....... how else am i to present that?

or am i not supposed to be bringing this up at all?

What proof do you have that the Hebrews committed genocide?

And on top of that, how do you know that God (a) exists and (b) told them to do it?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Do you know that Jews believe that the ancient Hebrews committed genocide and that God told them to do it, going against God's command "thou shalt not murder?"

Do you have - at the very least - knowledge of archaeological evidence of a genocide caused by ancient Hebrews?

If not, it's a strawman.

 

[gzusfrk]

i had this debate in another thread, but that one seems to have vanished, so i thought id create this one.

when conquering Palestine, the Hebrews committed genocide against a number of peoples there. and this wasnt long after he gave them the commandments telling them not to kill.

of course i dont believe this, i believe its an excuse the Hebrews used to excuse their genocide. but, for the sake of argument, lets say the order did come from god, did that make it ok? shouldnt an order like this be a sure sign that your god is evil? or does having him on your side matter more?

They most likely were going against God, lots of people do very bad things and call themself christians. but you say, lets just say, so here goes, I think you, I know I would kill under certian conditions. since we dont know the condition how do we know it to be just

 

[JMorris]

What proof do you have that the Hebrews committed genocide?

And on top of that, how do you know that God (a) exists and (b) told them to do it?

well you got me there!

not to hard when you know i dont believe the bible, or in god

im actually not sure that the hebrews did or not. but the bible says they did.....

from what ive read of your posts, your a knowledgeable christian, what do you think of it? im sorry if i came off confrontational, that wasnt my intention.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

well you got me there!

not to hard when you know i dont believe the bible, or in god

im actually not sure that the hebrews did or not. but the bible says they did.....

from what ive read of your posts, your a knowledgeable christian, what do you think of it? im sorry if i came off confrontational, that wasnt my intention.

If the Bible says that "they did" and we know that they didn't, that sheds some light on how we interpret the text.

We can't accuse God of commanding / causing a genocide that never happened.

 

[JMorris]

Do you know that Jews believe that the ancient Hebrews committed genocide and that God told them to do it, going against God's command "thou shalt not murder?"

Do you have - at the very least - knowledge of archaeological evidence of a genocide caused by ancient Hebrews?

If not, it's a strawman.

It could be one made from ignorance (that is, not knowing Hebrew traditions), intellectual dishonesty (ignoring Hebrew traditions), or intellectual irresponsibility and carelessness.

I detect elements of all three.

id pick the first one, ignorance. i claim no expertise on the bible. if i am wrong in in what i thought, then let me know.

 

[AlsoAnima]

No. Just No. :no:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

from what ive read of your posts, your a knowledgeable christian, what do you think of it? im sorry if i came off confrontational, that wasnt my intention.

I'm not a Hebrew Bible scholar.

BUT, there are somewhat related texts that can help us, in my opinion, to make sense out of the Hebrew traditions.

The Hebrews only had one God, or at least henotheism, and tried to interpret the world through this one God. So we have God involved in the good, the bad, and the ugly of life. The Hebrews simply incorporated myths of their nation with their theology, some elements of the myth probably happened - there may have been some wars, but nothing like what is in the Bible. And no genocides.

The Greeks did something similar and we see it in Homer and in Euripides - just to name some obvious examples. The gods do all sorts of things, good and bad, and humans interact both positively and negatively with the gods.

 

[therealsuperman64]

If God tells you to commit a genocide on a group of people then you should close your ears and not listen because it's not God. The whole idea of a genocide completely contradicts God's principles of love.

 

[Humanistheart]

I do not see how this is a strawman argument. It's quite factual (from a biblical/theological perspective, not an empiracle one). But when considering religious questions like this one must always look to the religious tradition to answer them, it's dogma and it's practices. In this case God cammands for multiple genocides in the bible, so genocide under his command cannot be a sin. Of course, sin is not the same as wrong or unethical, it just means god's displeased by it. And the bible does not forbid killing of other people, in fact it encourages it in mulitple places*. It forbids murder but murder is relative to the societies laws. And hebrew society was said to be following gods laws.

*You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
-Rel Studies Minor

 

[rojse]

I do not see how this is a strawman argument. It's quite factual (from a biblical/theological perspective, not an empiracle one).

There are quite a few presumptions here, as Angellous_Evangellous pointed out.

1) God exists
2) The genocide occurred
3) God ordered the genocide

The first and the third presumptions are theologically-based.

 

[Dunemeister]

The Hebrews only had one God, or at least henotheism, and tried to interpret the world through this one God. So we have God involved in the good, the bad, and the ugly of life. The Hebrews simply incorporated myths of their nation with their theology, some elements of the myth probably happened - there may have been some wars, but nothing like what is in the Bible. And no genocides.

It's worth pointing out that in the book of Joshua, where Israel's wars with the Canaanites is portrayed, Israel doesn't follow through with God's command. In response, God essentially says "Fine. Let's see whether you can remain faithful to our covenant in the midst of these pagans." So we might say that God commanded the genocide, Israel balked, and God acquiesced.

 

[Dunemeister]

To be fair to the OP, we should probably just take the hypothetical. IF there is a God, and IF that God commands his people to commit genocide, do those people have a moral obligation to commit genocide? I'd say yes. There's no higher authority than God, and if God indeed has ordered X, whatever X is, his people are under a moral obligation to do X even if X is otherwise considered to be immoral. HOWEVER, you'd better be darn sure it's God ordering X and not some imposter....

 

[fantome profane]

To be fair to the OP, we should probably just take the hypothetical. IF there is a God, and IF that God commands his people to commit genocide, do those people have a moral obligation to commit genocide? I'd say yes. There's no higher authority than God, and if God indeed has ordered X, whatever X is, his people are under a moral obligation to do X even if X is otherwise considered to be immoral. HOWEVER, you'd better be darn sure it's God ordering X and not some imposter....

You are equating authority and morality, as I think you have done before. It is one thing to say there is no higher authority, but is there a higher morality? I am prepared to say that genocide is immoral, and I base that on a higher morality than “God”. If “God” (hypothetically) orders genocide then that is all the evidence that I require to say that “God” is immoral.

To disobey “God” may be anti-authoritarian, but it is not necessarily immoral.

 

[Humanistheart]

I agree, the idea that someone would follow an immoral act because they have some kind of 'authority' is the kind of thinking that allowed the halocaust to happen. Morality and authority are not inherently connected.