Is forced labour in prisons ethical?

[Nakosis]

I would say no, although the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution allows for it:


Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Nice they define it as slavery so I don't have to.

So slavery in the right circumstances is ethical.

 

[Kathryn]

I used to work in a state maximum security unit for the criminally insane, which was interesting, but I digress. Anyway, what distressed me was the recidivism rate and 2) the fact that non violent and violent people were locked up together. The only thing they seemed to have in common was that at some point in the process, they were deemed to be mentally ill. I thought it was so sad. So you'd have a person who broke into a convenience store after hours and when the police got there, he was standing at the register trying to buy some candy, sharing a cell room with someone who had gone on a rampage against a SWAT team, with a gun. But hey, they were both mentally ill and both technically criminals, so they ended up together at a maximum security unit for the criminally insane.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I used to work in a state maximum security unit for the criminally insane, which was interesting, but I digress. Anyway, what distressed me was the recidivism rate and 2) the fact that non violent and violent people were locked up together. The only thing they seemed to have in common was that at some point in the process, they were deemed to be mentally ill. I thought it was so sad. So you'd have a person who broke into a convenience store after hours and when the police got there, he was standing at the register trying to buy some candy, sharing a cell room with someone who had gone on a rampage against a SWAT team, with a gun. But hey, they were both mentally ill and both technically criminals, so they ended up together at a maximum security unit for the criminally insane.

That is indeed sad. But note that

• Is forced prison labor inherently unethical?

and

• Is the U.S. prison system ethical?

are fundamentally different questions.

 

[Rival]

It's fine.

 

[libre]

Forced labor is no more unethical than is forced confinement assuming, of course, humane working conditions.

I don't see why.

The benefits of confinement are that the confined is isolated from free society and the scope of harm that they can do is reduced.
What are the benefits of forced labour?

 

[Stevicus]

Nice they define it as slavery so I don't have to.

So slavery in the right circumstances is ethical.

Well, of course, they have to be "duly convicted." But then there have been some cases where those who were "duly convicted" turned out to be innocent.

This is where it gets to be problematic, at least when looking at whether it's ethical or not. In theory, if we're talking about those who are truly guilty of violent crimes, then that's one thing. But what if they're not guilty but the state says they're guilty? Should we take the state's word for it? I agree with punishing the guilty, but I also agree with attempting to reform and rehabilitate people who might have gotten caught up in the wrong crowd or did something stupid, but can still be salvageable.

Moreover, even if it's considered ethical to give convicted criminals a punishment to fit the crime, I think it's valid to question whether it crosses the line for a society to consider the prison population to be an economic resource to be exploited.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What are the benefits of forced labour?

The potential benefit would be to partially offset the cost of incarceration. So, as a somewhat trivial example, I spent a month at a California "honor farm" (aka detention center). Presumably, at least some the produce was available for consumption by the inmates.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Parenthetically, the ACLU position paper provides important context.

 

[Kathryn]

That is indeed sad. But note that

• Is forced prison labor inherently unethical?

and

• Is the U.S. prison system ethical?

are fundamentally different questions.

I don't think the US prison system is without problems, that's for sure. I don't believe that forcing able prisoners to labor in order to offset some of the cost of imprisoning them is inherently evil though.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't think the US prison system is without problems, that's for sure. I don't believe that forcing able prisoners to labor in order to offset some of the cost of imprisoning them is inherently evil though.

Precisely, since the latter was the point of the focus of the OP.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think the US prison system is without problems, that's for sure. I don't believe that forcing able prisoners to labor in order to offset some of the cost of imprisoning them is inherently evil though.

Many jails & prisons charge prisoners for their stay.

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-majority-of-states-allow-people-to-be-charged-for-time-behind-bars

Fighting the Fees that Force Prisoners to Pay for Their Incarceration | Prison Legal News

This too is to defray costs.
While it's often done improperly (IMO),
I say it can be ethical. What say you?

 

[Kathryn]

Many jails & prisons charge prisoners for their stay.

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/04/1084452251/the-vast-majority-of-states-allow-people-to-be-charged-for-time-behind-bars

Fighting the Fees that Force Prisoners to Pay for Their Incarceration | Prison Legal News

This too is to defray costs.
While it's often done improperly (IMO),
I say it can be ethical. What say you?

I say it can be ethical.

 

[McBell]

I don't know anything about it

Perhaps you should start here:

Penal labour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PureX]

I say it can be ethical.

Many things that are ethical may not be practically achievable.

 

[Nakosis]

Well, of course, they have to be "duly convicted." But then there have been some cases where those who were "duly convicted" turned out to be innocent.

This is where it gets to be problematic, at least when looking at whether it's ethical or not. In theory, if we're talking about those who are truly guilty of violent crimes, then that's one thing. But what if they're not guilty but the state says they're guilty? Should we take the state's word for it? I agree with punishing the guilty, but I also agree with attempting to reform and rehabilitate people who might have gotten caught up in the wrong crowd or did something stupid, but can still be salvageable.

Moreover, even if it's considered ethical to give convicted criminals a punishment to fit the crime, I think it's valid to question whether it crosses the line for a society to consider the prison population to be an economic resource to be exploited.

Myself, I'd give them the choice along with some benefit of their servitude.

 

[Spice]

Is forced labour in prisons ethical? My intuitive hunch is probably not, so why do we allow it exactly?

Now I'm speaking of non-violent, non-lifers here. -- Yes. It gives the inmates structure and purpose. It helps them occupy their time and their minds in the real world or a facsimile of it. It helps to keep them engaged in a world they will re-enter. Too much "prison life" makes for a prison mentality that we don't need returned to society, so "working" even if it must be mandatory, aka forced, is better for all.

 

[Spice]

Because it is involuntary shelter, a person can choose not to eat or wear clothes and choose to be homeless in my view.
Additionaly because I'm doubtful that union representatives are allowed to contribute to working conditions and wages in prison, although it maybe that they are and I'm just unaware of it.

So you believe children should not have to have chores, involving little to no monetary compensation, to learn responsibility, cooperation, and to learn we all must "pay our way" in life?

 

[Spice]

So ignore the issues of jail for a brief moment, do you think that people who are mentally and/or physically unfit for work should be forced to work for food, shelter and clothing?

Now coming back to the issue of jail, aren't a high proportion of inmates mentally unwell?
In Australia, 'Of prison entrants surveyed in 2018:

• 2 in 5 (40%) reported having been told they had a mental health disorder at some point during their lives
• females (28%) were almost twice as likely as males (15%) to be dispensed mental health-related medication
• almost 1 in 5 (18%) were referred to mental health services for observation and further assessment (AIHW 2019).'

Source: Health of people in prison

That doesn't make them useless to society! That's a stigma that needs serious correction.

 

[Spice]

Are there systems in place to determine if one is fit to work in prison or are they just forced to labour?

They have their evaluations to determine a lot of various things. Again, depending on the crime and sentence.

 

[Spice]

I believe maybe you are conflating fitness to work with fitness to stand trial. Being sane enough to sit in a courtroom and give testimony are different to the competency level required to do hard labour or any complex tasks that may be required as I see it.

Now you've changed your scenario from forced labor to hard labor. Huge difference!