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Is Democracy too much for the masses? (Nerd warning: references to A Game of Thrones ahead)

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You mean China? The solution, of course, is not simply enforcing non-democratic leadership. It is necessary to work at deeper levels of the society and actually nurture and develop actual moral and political values

This was the basic idea behind Communist political systems as the "vanguard of the proletariat" or 'Communist Party' was supposed to represent the most able and dedicated members of the people, who could decide what values the rest of society should hold in the name of moral progress. The Party was considered a progressive and educational influence on society. I'm not inherently opposed to this if it 'worked' so the comparison isn't meant as a criticism of you're intentions, but the results speak of the dangers of this approach of the state taking on the role of 'teacher' to discipline society. We are now perversely in a situation where corporations are able to mold public opinion in a quasi-totalitarian way.

Democracy protects not only freedom of thought, but people's freedom to be ignorant. Economic development which requires education and political rights which are more fixed. this produces a conflict in that the more power we have collectively as citizens the greater our responsibilities and is dissonant with the concept of individual rights and liberalism. i.e. Citizenship does not automatically entail a responsibility to be well-informed. It could be argued the opportunities are very limited outside of the upper and middle classes in terms of levels of education and the time to participate in political affairs, though this is an economic problem which could be overcome in time (probably a considerable period).

Sunstone is right that democracy is undermined by the role of elites and the influence they have over public opinion, particularly through mass media. A particular issue is how mass media promotes anti-intellectual and anti-political attitudes which have the effect that people can be easily manipulated and are too apathetic to become involved. It is possible to change the culture, but you will be very quickly entering territory of social engineering and you can throw traditional concepts of "free thought" out the window. There is already a huge amount of propaganda in circulation that we accept implicitly (such as advertising) and the problem is whether you try to reverse this trend to something that fights with individual rights or go for a more conscious attempt to control the way people think by corporation or the government.

The dangers should be self-evident, but "democracy" is a becoming admirable attempt to conceal the true extent of unequal economic and political power. The problem is how far social engineering necessarily perpetuates new inequalities between the "teacher" state and wider society by denying the freedom of the latter.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Well I don't know what the real solution is, but it's a big problem when you have 300,000,000 people who are wrongly convinced that they have a functioning democracy that has the moral high ground on the world stage.

Far as I know, most everyone feels to have the moral high ground, both individually and collectively. There are powerful psychological mechanisms that drive us towards that certainty, regardless of facts.

Did I make it appear that I mean that the USA are particularly misguided as contrasted to other nations? That was not my intention. I do not believe them to be.


Temporarily removing the system could be a good thing in the long run. It's easier when you destroy and then recreate rather than try to fix something that's horribly broken.

Perhaps. But the actual problem is not that the political structure is not good enough or representative enough. It is rather that except for a few and far between exceptions (Nordic Countries, arguably Japan and the former British Colonies) we are pursuing a mirage, hoping for elections alone to renew and regenerate our viability and our moral worth.

And that is simply not at all likely to happen without actual efforts at making it possible. And a political system is not something suited for such a goal.

We need instead to accept and act accordingly to the actual need of nurturing individual and collective responsibility, citizenship, social contracts that we understand and support.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
1) People have no real understanding of the power Pacifism holds.

2) People worship themselves as gods, even if they don't believe in one. They're much more willing to exploit, retaliate, and repeat, than to consider others as equals.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
What if no one opposed the Nazis?

What if no one opposes the radical Islamists whose stated goal is to impose a one world caliph and people can either obey Islamic law or die?

War is sometimes necessary. Killing people is sometimes necessary.

There are evil people out there that need to be stopped using violence.

Since we're asking what-ifs:

What if no one followed Hitler's orders?
What if we didn't invest extravagant amounts of money on weapons and ammunition that end up in Islamists hands?
What if we invested more money into education, medication, and social cooperation?
What if Isaiah was at least partly right?

Isaiah 2
And He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


What if you and your family were in Nazi Germany, and you had a choice- either kill other "innocent" people, or die along with your family. What would you have chosen?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The question is, how much of that stage have we collectively understood and mastered?

Not much at all IMO. There is considerable evidence that we actually regressed in the last 100 years or so.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Good OP.

One thing that gives me hope is how democratic societies are able to compete internationally.
 
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