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Is Deism A Form Of Theism?

DarkSun

:eltiT
The only difference I see is on the issue of whether God is interventionist.
DIR ALERT: If you are not a deist, please limit your responses to respectful questions.


I also see the main difference being that deism encourages belief through reason, while theism encourages blind faith. But where I think I disagree with Tumbleweed is that 'reason' is only valid if it's supported through the scientific method. Deductive reasoning through science and logic is only one way through which we can reason. I would argue that sometimes, inductive reasoning and intuition can be equally valid. Not always. Just sometimes.

Personally, when I look at the world I can't fathom how it could have ever come about by chance. When I see how science is, continually, discovering more and more complexities in organisms, in matter, in the constituents of matter and in the universe itself, I find it hard to imagine how there couldn't have been an architect of some kind. I haven't come to this conclusion using deductive reasoning or the scientific method. I've come to this conclusion mainly through my own experiences, my own thought processes, and basically through experiences with my own self with respect to everything else.

This isn't a scientific opinion. I acknowledge this. But like Tumbleweed, I think that science and human logic will never come close to understanding what I would loosely call "God". So I don't think my lack of empirical evidence is something to be worried about. I don't think that my acceptance of a "God" despite lack of evidence constitutes blind faith, because I have come to this conclusion of my own accord, by my own reasoning (inductive and deductive). I don't think this is something that most theists have in common with me. :p
 
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DarkSun

:eltiT
not true of philosophical theism.

This is admittedly the first time I've ever heard that term. I thought that theists believed in a deity who currently interacts with the universe and the people therein, while deists believe in an impersonal, incomprehensible "God", which doesn't apparently hold any favors with people in particular (although how could we know, really...?). Is this distinction not apparent for philosophical theism?

I think deism is a form of monotheism.

Except deism doesn't promote the idea of "one true God", which underpins monotheism. Instead, it doesn't claim to understand the nature of "God" at all. :)
 
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horntooth

Sextian
This is admittedly the first time I've ever heard that term.
deism is a modern "renaissance" of philosophical theism.. first recorded belief in one god- based on thinking, and not tradition/ mythology is in ancient greece - xenophanes, heraclitus, anaxagoras, socrates, antisthenes, zeno, (pythagoras and plato- in some degree).

I thought that theists believed in a deity who currently interacts with the universe and the people therein, while deists believe in an impersonal, incomprehensible "God", which doesn't apparently hold any favors with people in particular (although how could we know, really...?). Is this distinction not apparent for philosophical theism?
you are correct (except as far as i know deist do believe that god is a person). the difference is that philosophical theists generally believed (and believe) in god who is immanent, both by his being, and his acting.
philosophical theism is similar do deism, it doesn't encourage blind faith, maybe not any faith at all- i, for instance, am a philosophical theist, and (like voltaire) consider existence of god a matter of reason, not of faith.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
(except as far as i know deist do believe that god is a person)

No, like DarkSun said, Deism does not claim to understand the nature of "God" at all. And calling God a 'person' would be an anthropomorphic undertaking that usually makes the Deist shudder.;)
 

horntooth

Sextian
No, like DarkSun said, Deism does not claim to understand the nature of "God" at all. And calling God a 'person' would be an anthropomorphic undertaking that usually makes the Deist shudder.
it doesn't? there's no historical deists, from tindal to spooner that didn't believe that god was a person.
god can be a person, or he isn't a god at all, there's no third. if god is not a person, the word "god" can be a metaphor, like pantheist use it for the universe, and that's it..
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
it doesn't? there's no historical deists, from tindal to spooner that didn't believe that god was a person.
god can be a person, or he isn't a god at all, there's no third. if god is not a person, the word "god" can be a metaphor, like pantheist use it for the universe, and that's it..
Many Deists, both historical and modern attribute only natural law to God, without any personification or anthropomorphism of the Deity beyond Prime Mover or First Cause.

Stating unprovable absolutes such as "god can be a person, or he isn't a god at all, there's no third" is just another futile attempt to give God human attributes, when in fact we know nothing at all about the true nature of God. And for many Deists, the only way to come to any understanding about the nature of God is to learn all we can about how our natural universe actually works.
 

horntooth

Sextian
Many Deists, both historical and modern attribute only natural law to God, without any personification or anthropomorphism of the Deity beyond Prime Mover or First Cause.
i can only think of aristotel...

Stating unprovable absolutes such as "god can be a person, or he isn't a god at all, there's no third" is just another futile attempt to give God human attributes
the concept of a deity is by definition connected with the concept of personality.

pantheists that call universe "god" are atheists.

the form of deism that you are propagating, calling natural laws "god" is likewise atheistic.
 
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tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
i can only think of aristotel...
The effects we acknowledge naturally, do include a power of their producing, before they were produced; and that power presupposeth something existent that hath such power; and the thing so existing with power to produce, if it were not eternal, must needs have been produced by somewhat before it, and that again by something else before that, till we come to an eternal, that is to say, the first power of all powers and first cause of all causes; and this is it which all men conceive by the name of God, implying eternity, incomprehensibility, and omnipotence.

—Thomas Hobbes, Works, vol. 4, pp. 59-60



Do we want to contemplate his power? We see it in the immensity of the Creation. Do we want to contemplate his wisdom? We see it in the unchangeable order by which the incomprehensible WHOLE is governed. Do we want to contemplate his munificence? We see it in the abundance with which he fills the earth. Do we want to contemplate his mercy? We see it in his not withholding that abundance even from the unthankful. In fine, do we want to know what GOD is? Search not written or printed books, but the Scripture called the 'Creation.'
--Thomas Paine, A Discourse At The Society Of Theophilanthropists



And again, many Modern Deists attribute only natural law to God, without any personification or anthropomorphism of the Deity beyond Prime Mover or First Cause.


the concept of a deity is by definition with the concept of personality.

That would depend on whose definition you were using. Obviously, by your personal definition, God=person. This is not a universal and absolute definition.

pantheists that call universe "god" are atheists.

Incorrect. See Storms posts here.

the form of deism that you are propagating, calling natural laws "god" is likewise atheistic.
I did not call natural laws "god". I said the only attribute (quality or characteristic) a Deist would give to God would be natural law (the Laws that govern our Universe).
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
As this is the Deist DIR (Discuss Individual Religion) and not a debate section, non-Deists should please limit responses to respectful questions.

If you wish open debate on Deism, please start a thread in the Deism section of Religious Topics.
 

horntooth

Sextian
Incorrect. See Storms posts
storm is, as i see, a panentheist. i am a panentheist, too, to differentiate by beliefs from pantheism. in pantheism, "god" is all- just the sum of everything that exists, while panentheism is believing that "the all" (everything that exists) has a mind- as anaxogoras called it (nous), that is- reason- as heraclitus, socrates and zeno called it (logos).

I did not call natural laws "god". I said the only attribute (quality or characteristic) a Deist would give to God would be natural law (the Laws that govern our Universe).
what's the difference?

okay, i'll ask it like this- do you believe that god is being? does he think? does he have a mind/ reason?
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
okay, i'll ask it like this- do you believe that god is being? does he think? does he have a mind/ reason?

As I said before, a Deist does not attempt personification or anthropomorphism of God.
I would never ascribe human attributes to God.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
okay, i'll ask it like this- do you believe that god is being? does he think? does he have a mind/ reason?

As I said before, a Deist does not attempt personification or anthropomorphism of God.
I would never ascribe human attributes to God.

so that's a no?
Refusing to answer with a positive does not equate to the negative.
It would be foolish and unreasonable to make assumptions one way or the other. (At least in a Deistic philosophy)
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
which makes you a ietsist (or on english- somethingist), or an agnostic theist.
Ietsism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Agnostic theism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Despite your attempts to label others beliefs based on the limited information you know about them (pantheists=atheists, deist=agnostic theism/letsism or even atheist) each person is best able to define their beliefs on their own.

I am a Modern Deist. Deists , as a non-organized belief, vary widely in many aspects of their faith, but do agree to many of the same core beliefs. (See the minor differences between DarkSun and myself earlier in this thread.)
 

horntooth

Sextian
I am a Modern Deist. Deists , as a non-organized belief, vary widely in many aspects of their faith, but do agree to many of the same core beliefs.
yeah, you agree with other deists that "god" exists, but i just can't imagine how, being that you don't think that thinks, or is at all a being..
 
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