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Is Communism Inherently Toxic?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
... No state, however democratic – not even the reddest republic – can ever give the people what they really want, i.e., the free self-organization and administration of their own affairs from the bottom upward, without any interference or violence from above, because every state, even the pseudo-People’s State concocted by Mr. Marx, is in essence only a machine ruling the masses from above, through a privileged minority of conceited intellectuals, who imagine that they know what the people need and want better than do the people themselves..- Bakunin
The major problem with that is Marxism is stateless, and it's not a group of privileged minorities but everyone (technically the term would be proletariat-the working class-but under Marxism all share an equal obligation to work) who decides what they need, kinda like we were doing for a very long time.
I see communism as inherently toxic. It is much too oblivious to individual people to allow them to correct its course, thereby dooming itself.
Far right-winged dictators, regardless of what labels they use, are always more concerned with themselves and not about anyone else. With Marxism, people contribute as they can in accordance to their skills and abilities, and even education would be adjusted to include things like skilled trade. Communism just isn't this rugged ultra-conformist Borgish-like society people think it is.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Far right-winged dictators, regardless of what labels they use, are always more concerned with themselves and not about anyone else. With Marxism, people contribute as they can in accordance to their skills and abilities, and even education would be adjusted to include things like skilled trade. Communism just isn't this rugged ultra-conformist Borgish-like society people think it is.

Not sure why you brought right wing to the discussion.

I acknowledge that there is a good intent in Marxist theory, but it does not seem to be capable of expressing itself in constructive ways.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I acknowledge that there is a good intent in Marxist theory, but it does not seem to be capable of expressing itself in constructive ways.
Have you read anything by Marx and/or Engels? They were actually harsh critics of the state, and many of their criticisms fully apply to the states that have called themselves "Marxist."
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Have you read anything by Marx and/or Engels? They were actually harsh critics of the state, and many of their criticisms fully apply to the states that have called themselves "Marxist."
Fair enough, but doesn't this somewhat reinforce my point?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
The major problem with that is Marxism is stateless, and it's not a group of privileged minorities but everyone (technically the term would be proletariat-the working class-but under Marxism all share an equal obligation to work) who decides what they need, kinda like we were doing for a very long time.

Marx believed in a transitional state mediated through government. Bakunin's sole conception of autonomy and freedom within the collective is centered, perhaps even to a fault, on conceptions of individuals being and acting freely, with a common shared interest in equality, on the premises that humans are natural. Marx follows a philosophical tradition of humans being separated to some degree from nature, and that truth would be accumulation of history. His end goal was a stateless society, but it proceeded first through certain states.

At least this is what I've been lead to believe.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Marx theorized a dictatorship of the proletariat leading to a society completely exempt of hierarchy by abolishing government once proper infrastructure was in place. I believe you are correct.
That is IMO one of the most questionable parts of his proposals. Dictatorships have the hardest time keeping moral integrity, as so depressingly well-demonstrated pretty much everywhere.

At the last lights of World War I, Germany smuggled Lenin and a few other Marxist leaders into Russia, hoping to further the internal revolts there enough to relieve the military pressure over their eastern war front.

It worked, after a fashion, but Lenin very soon convinced himself that there could be no socialist change without a lot of violence and murder. The rest is regrettable history. And if in the one hand it led to Stalin and his decisive role in WW II, one has to wonder if some other path could not have helped avoid WW II in the first place. Stalin was not something we had to hope for.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Old joke....
What are the 4 problems of communist agriculture?
Spring, summer, fall & winter!

Note:
The Great Famine in China killed 20,000,000-43,000,000 people.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Fair enough, but doesn't this somewhat reinforce my point?
Not really. There are valid criticisms of Marxism, but far too often it's like a YEC trying to criticize evolution, and in both cases it's very obvious the one doing the criticizing has no idea what they are talking about and have a very inadequate knowledge and understanding of the subject to be criticizing it.
At least this is what I've been lead to believe.
There is a transitional phase, yes, in which the state is used to protect and assist the proletariat (rather than a shield for the ruling class) and as a vanguard towards communism (not to establish the rule of the state as total). Really, if you made a list of what the state was doing and how it was ran, Marxism and Communism aren't labels that would be applied because those philosophies just do not match with the practices of places such as China or Soviet Russia. And because we hate communism, we don't even acknowledge the communist nature of hunter-gatherer tribes, we don't acknowledge there have been many successful communist societies (such as early Christian communes), and a very huge chunk of the population do not even realize socialism and communism are not the same thing and are not interchangeable, and they don't even know that Marx did not invent communism or that there are many different versions of communism, and they do not realize the community is the root-word of communism. Actually, what we tend to think of as communism is much more closer to communitarianism, where there is a high chance of the individual being ignored, others will decide for you what is good and bad, and your entire existence is defined by the community.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That is IMO one of the most questionable parts of his proposals. Dictatorships have the hardest time keeping moral integrity, as so depressingly well-demonstrated pretty much everywhere.

At the last lights of World War I, Germany smuggled Lenin and a few other Marxist leaders into Russia, hoping to further the internal revolts there enough to relieve the military pressure over their eastern war front.

It worked, after a fashion, but Lenin very soon convinced himself that there could be no socialist change without a lot of violence and murder. The rest is regrettable history. And if in the one hand it led to Stalin and his decisive role in WW II, one has to wonder if some other path could not have helped avoid WW II in the first place. Stalin was not something we had to hope for.

The History of Communism is "mixed" to the point where "right" and "wrong" aren't sufficient to do justice to describing it. It comes down to the question of expiediency. Whatever advances the cause of communism is good or "progressive". whatever hinders or forces back communism is bad or "reactionary". [its "progressive" because communism is supposed to be a predicted future stage in human social evolution which everyone is "progressing" towards.]

On the one hand "liquidating the exploiting class" (*cough* mass murder *cough*) is acceptable and reasonable thing to do as you are eliminating the enemies of socialism. On the other hand, communists had a "heroic" or rather sucicidal ability to pick up unpopular causes to help their own. e.g. Civil rights of African Americans in the South during Jim Crow, resisting Apartied in South Africa, organising the unemployed as a tactic during the Great Depression, and of course being part of the resistence in Nazi Germany and occupied Europe. This included resistence and rebellion in the concerntration camps themselves whilst the nazis were still in control such as at Buchenwald.

They were also great supporters of Science, and were able to get a head start in the space race (first satillite-Sputnik, first dog in space, first man in space, first woman in space, etc.) They made contributions to science: e.g. the concept of "primordial soup" as an explanation for the origin of life was from Alexander Oparin (1924), Ivan Pavov's work on classical conditioning, etc.). The downside was "Science" was considered a realm of ideology, subordinate to it and as an instrument for building communism, so genetics was banned for being "fascist" due to its association with Eugenics and Soviet agriculture struggled with the disaster of "lysenkoism" effects on biology and agricultural research. Physics had problems as the "Big Bang" and "quantum mechanics" both had potentially "theological" interpretions which had to be avoided. Again, many Scientists-like everyone else- were purged in the 1930's.

Whilst obviously science and politics where not closely connected, Alexander Bogdanov was a member of the bolshevik party during lenin's time and an ameteur scientist. he created a philosophy known as tectology now regarded as a fore-runner of "systems theory". he died after experimenting with blood transfusions on himself and contracting malaria and tuberoclousis from an infected sample (the student who he treated with blood transfusions recovered though).

Another mention is Soviet economists such as Krondatiev who came up with "long-wave" bussiness cycles of about 45-60 years [and was purged by stalin as this contradicted the offical view that the great depression was the final crisis of capitalism or "third period"], and the Kuznets business cycle of 15-25 years (who also won a nobel prize in economic science in 1971).

Depending on how you look at it, the USSR was one of the first countries to legalise homosexuality in 1917 (only to recriminalise it in 1934 under Stalin- the offical justification was that homosexuality was "fascist" because of it's prevelance in the SA in Nazi Germany, as well as a moral panic over pedophillia). During the 1920's there was a period of "sexual revolution" as marxist ideology insisted on the "abolition of the family". this ranged from open discussions of masturbation, freudian psychoanaylisis, "free unions" (legal recognition of rights of non-married parterns), and the right of divorce iniated by one partner. Homosexuality was not widely accepted in the more socially conservative period of Communism under Stalin and after, and was considered "un-mascluine" and therefore not compatable with the idealised version of the political militant. East Germany (sort of an exception) legalised homosexualityin 1968 though it was very grudingly. there is actually a youtube video "do communists have better sex?" which makes the case that east germans were more sexually liberated than their western counter-parts because of communist efforts towards equal rights for women, the states role in regulating sex through education and their anti-religious policy (the west german government is supposed to have been heavily influenced by the church).

On the subject of women's rights, in Afghanistan during the communist period, the "womens council" promited literacy and education for girls and gave women the right to chose their husbands. most of the women of Kabul fought the Mujahadieen because of their opposition to womens rights.

So yeah. there is more to it than a one-dimensional campign of "death and destruction", but it is an inescapable feature. Ultimately, their dedication to their cause was simulanteously their greatest asset and liability. its doesn't fit simple generalisations.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
As a teenager I used to chat with an old man that I liked. Sometimes he would talk about Christianity, and what a wonderful world we could make. Other times he would talk about Communism and how great it was in theory but it would never work.
The two worlds that he described were identical. It is very easy to get caught up in labels.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Keeping in mind there has never been a Communist Country and the fact that the term Communist "State" is wrong, because under Communism the State no longer exists. Well there are different types of Communism me I am part Titoist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titoism . What Communism is being talked about?
Unfortunately, due to Cold War anti-Communist propaganda, most people are only aware of states such as Stalinist Russia, where the state has supreme authority. They do not even know that early Christian communes were communist. But, then again, they also think Karl Marx invented communism.
Other times he would talk about Communism and how great it was in theory but it would never work.
It's undeniable that communism has worked, it has kept the peace, and the community was well off. The question is really is how to do away with the perversion that is "private property," make people realize our materialistic and consumerist ways are holding us back, convince them to come together not to better themselves but to better everyone (which has a "side-effect" of better themselves as an individual), and instilling that fact that we do not need money to motivate. How do we make people realize that their mentality of "me, me, me" hurts them and everyone else, but when we have the mentality of "us as a whole" things will get better if we have no religion, no class, no nation, and nothing else that needlessly divides us and creates hostilities that wouldn't have existed had these pesky and divisive ideologies existed. No, it won't happen any time soon, but we are seeing an increase in tolerance and acceptance towards those with "differences" in many parts of the world. We are seeing more worker owned businesses existed and thriving. And we are also seeing more socialist policies being enacted, and Karl Marx did write that socialism is a step towards communism - it actually boggles my mind as to why so many communists are opposed towards socialist democracy, because such policies do give more power to the working class, they do reign in on unbridled free markets and their destructive habits, and they are steps - albeit small steps - towards communism.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
North Korea, China, and the USSR—all totalitarian states, the common factor between which is their communist foundations. There are prosperous socialist countries like Canada, Sweden, and France, and there are capitalist countries like the U.S. and England that have thrived for a long time despite struggling in certain areas. But what about communist countries? Why do you think almost all of the major communist states have either devolved into dictatorships or lent themselves to fascist, bloodthirsty regimes?

Put differently, do you think communism as an ideology is inherently toxic, or has it only been misunderstood or misused this whole time?

To quote Forest Gump, 'I think maybe it's both!'

It's an inherently bad idea, but with some good intentions, that is inherently extremely vulnerable to misuse
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It's an inherently bad idea, but with some good intentions, that is inherently extremely vulnerable to misuse
Name some of the ideas of communism? And, keep in mind, there are at least a few of us here who have read communist literature and will be able to spot if your claims are bogus or real.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
It worked, after a fashion, but Lenin very soon convinced himself that there could be no socialist change without a lot of violence and murder. The rest is regrettable history. And if in the one hand it led to Stalin and his decisive role in WW II, one has to wonder if some other path could not have helped avoid WW II in the first place. Stalin was not something we had to hope for.

Yes I think there is truth in what you say. However I wonder if Stalin would have managed to take over if so many true revolutionaries had not been killed fighting foreign intervention and foreign backed counter-revolutionaries.
As for WWII it is worth considering if the German Communist Party would have rolled over so easily without a Stalinist regime in the USSR. Spain too could have had a very different outcome. A Soviet ally bordering France would be an incredibly important factor.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Some of you might be interested in this.
An AMA on reddit about a man who stayed in multiple gulags in the USSR but still thinks the USSR was better then the capitalist nations he's lived in. Some might want to read.
https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/44kx7v/as_promised_83_years_oldborn_in_ussr_and_lived/
I knew folks who came from the Soviet Union and were priviliged there. In Gorbachev's time they came to Northern Europe because working a low wage job here was better. There probably were positive sides to living in the SU, but it was far from a paradise compared to places like Germany and Denmark.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yes I think there is truth in what you say. However I wonder if Stalin would have managed to take over if so many true revolutionaries had not been killed fighting foreign intervention and foreign backed counter-revolutionaries.

I take it you think of foreign interests as a significant factor? I have to question that. Russia was very divided at the time, even more than other countries.

As for WWII it is worth considering if the German Communist Party would have rolled over so easily without a Stalinist regime in the USSR. Spain too could have had a very different outcome. A Soviet ally bordering France would be an incredibly important factor.
May you elaborate?
 
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