Is Catholicism a Christian religion ?

[RestlessSoul]

Culturaly, Christianity evolved as much from Hellenistic as Semitic traditions. And Catholicism certainly co-opted pagan elements into it's rituals and practices. As did Buddhism in China and Tibet.

I suppose the only question is, is this a good or a bad thing? That would depend on what you see as the core of Christ's message, and whether that message has been corrupted or enriched by the absorption of elements of the various cultures the religion came in contact with around the world.

 

[RestlessSoul]

So I would be wrong in assuming that the Catholic Church was a branch of reformed Druidism, I guess you learn something every day.

That might be true in Ireland but is unlikely to apply in Rome. Or Mexico or Mozambique.

The Catholic mass would be recognisable in each of those places, but would contain aesthetic, if not philosophical elements, specific to each location.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That might be true in Ireland but is unlikely to apply in Rome. Or Mexico or Mozambique.

The Catholic mass would be recognisable in each of those places, but would contain aesthetic, if not philosophical elements, specific to each location.

I did say "reformed" after all.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I did say "reformed" after all.

Reformed. Evolved. Rebranded. Whatever works.

 

[Rival]

The religion is 'Roman Catholicism ' it does hold to some of the things Christians believe , but so do some other religions .

There is no one group just called "Christianity"; all the Christian sects taken together are Christianity, whether you like it or not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Reformed. Evolved. Rebranded. Whatever works.

On a serious note the first response to this thread was the correct one.

 

[RestlessSoul]

On a serious note the first response to this thread was the correct one.

the multi face palm?

Harsh. A bit of nebulous metaphysical contemplation of a Saturday morning is fine with me

 

[KerimF]

'Being a formal Christian' and 'living the unconditional love towards all others', as revealed by Jesus Christ {Matthew 5:44-45} are different.

Added:
For instance, when I was young, studying at the university, I was banned (as a teacher) from Catechism when I said to my students that Jesus and our Father in Heaven are unified since before Creation by the Divine Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit. So they have one Will/Power (God) towards any outsider.

 

[Neuropteron]

.

Hi,
Mister Emu: A couple of questions for you. When was the Biblical canon codified? When was the Church first called Catholic? Do you find any relevance to the gap between these two dates and the ability to say that the Catholic Church is the product of "Biblical Christianity", instead of the other way around?
***
The bible canon of the Hebrew scriptures list 24 books that were recognized by Christ and the early Christians. It was only from these writings that the inspired writers quoted and introduced them by saying things like "as it was written"to give you the names and dates regarding canonicity of each book goes beyond this discussion.
----------------
Mister Emu: When was the Church first called Catholic?
***

Thanks to the fact that we are living in the age of information the dark history of the Catholic church is (much to their chagrin) not hidden.
The Roman Catholic church unofficially came into being in 312 A.D., at the time of the so-called "miraculous conversion" to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine but he still worshiped the sun god. Although Christianity was not made the official religion of the Roman Empire until the edicts of Theodosius I in 380 and 381 A.D., Constantine, from 312 A.D. until his death in 337, was engaged in the process of simultaneously building pagan temples and Christian churches, and was slowly turning over the reins of his pagan priesthood to the Bishop of Rome. https://www.eaec.org/cults/romancatholic.htm

Catholic means:an amalgamation, blending or merging. Following the institutionalization of Catholicism a host of pagan belief and ritual where sanctified by the church. This is in harmony with prophesies foretold by the apostle Paul regarding the apostasy and increase of false teachers creating imitation Christians who would give attention to misleading inspired utterances.e.g.(2Tim 4:3;2Thess 2:2;Mat 13)
-----------------------------------

Mister Emu: What do you mean by immortal?
The Bible clearly states that the soul exists, at least for an indeterminant amount of time, past the death of the body. It has no "natural" lifespan. What is that, if not immortal? Only God, in his power, can end a soul.
***

Immortality is clearly defined in the bible, as is the ability to murder our fellow man. there is no need for me to redefine these concepts or to seek explanation elsewhere.

Ez 18:4 "the soul that is sinning...will die"
Mat 25: "...these will depart into everlasting cutting-off
the dead are conscious of nothing and are completely inactive/(Ec 9:5,10;Ps 146:4)
The dead are compared to dust.(Ps 22:15)
The same original-language words for "death" or "dying" is applied (in the bible) to humans, animals and plants.(Ex 3:19;9L5;Joh 12:24;Jude 12;Re 16:3.)
In the bible there is only Life or death, death is simply the exact opposite of life (Deut 30:15).

The argument that life continued after death was started by Satan adopted by Pagan religion seeped in Greek philosophies then infiltrated in Christianity through the Catholic church.
Notwithstanding that if the soul did not die the scriptural doctrine of the resurrection would make no sense.

 

[Neuropteron]

Why apart from terminology are Moses, Elijah, Elisha an David not Jewish saints?

Hi,

That is correct the bible does mention that there are those that are called saints.
I was referring to the unscriptural employ of amulets, using saint as intercessors, praying to them and ascribing them certain powers.

 

[Neuropteron]

declaring that the Jewish god had changed [his] mind and didn't want to be just a tribal God any more.

Hi,
That is an interesting interpretation.
Jehovah never claimed to be only a tribal God. He simply stated that he wasn't one.
After all He created the universe, and He says that He does not change.

 

[blü 2]

Hi,

That is correct the bible does mention that there are those that are called saints.
I was referring to the unscriptural employ of amulets, using saint as intercessors, praying to them and ascribing them certain powers.

They had certain powers. Elijah and Elisha each performed resurrections of the dead, for instance.

 

[Neuropteron]

As I understand it, a Christian is anyone who accepts Jesus as her or his savior, without mor

Hi,
Actually more is required;
Rom 10:9
"For if you publicly declare that...Jesus is Lord, and Exercise faith... Then you will be saved"
A closer look at the requirement reveals that more is needed than simply accepting the gift of Jesus sacrifice.
First a public acknowledgment, then... not only having faith but exercising it.

It's like accepting a well paid job. It's easy to accept the job, I also have to do my part.

 

[blü 2]

Hi,
That is an interesting interpretation.
Jehovah never claimed to be only a tribal God.

In the Tanakh you can see the evolution of the concept of God. The earliest archaeology mentioning [him] is from around 1500 BCE, where [he]'s one member of the Canaanite pantheon, likely with a consort (Asherah) as was usual. Though she's gone by the time the Tanakh is written, the recognition of other gods continues, right through to the Babylonian captivity. There are many example eg Exodus 15:11, 20:3, Deuteronomy 5:7, Numbers 33:4, Judges 11;23-24, Psalms 82:1, Psalms, Psalms 86:8, Psalms 95:3, Psalms 135:5 &c, the best known being in the Decalogue, "you shall have no other gods before me", not "ain't no other gods". Or this:

Judges 11:23 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.
​

[His] followers henotheistically proclaim [him] the leading god, but they don't deny the reality of the others. in other words.

This doesn't become monotheism until the end of the Babylonian captivity, likely under the civilizing influence of the Babylonian court. But monotheism doesn't interrupt the requirement of the covenant of circumcision, which is unambiguous (and which if you read it will show how spurious is Paul's excuse to get rid of it, though of course an essential part of the uptake of Christianity among the pagans, since it was never popular among the Jews).

After all He created the universe, and He says that He does not change.

But [he] changes all the time. All gods must change as their followers change, because a god without followers is no god. The change from henotheism to monotheism is mentioned above. The Christian version of God emerges when Paul tears up the covenant of circumcision, and changes even more drastically when the Trinity doctrine is invented in the 4th century CE. God has also changed [his] values ─ [he] no longer supports slavery, [he]'s largely cool with divorce, [he]'s starting to accept sexual orientations other than straight ─ and so on.

 

[blü 2]

Hi,
Actually more is required;
Rom 10:9
"For if you publicly declare that...Jesus is Lord, and Exercise faith... Then you will be saved"
A closer look at the requirement reveals that more is needed than simply accepting the gift of Jesus sacrifice.
First a public acknowledgment, then... not only having faith but exercising it.

It's like accepting a well paid job. It's easy to accept the job, I also have to do my part.

Yes, I think that's implicit. But the "death-bed conversion", for example, is absolutely minimalist; and a whole lot of people who haven't given it much thought at all since their parents baptized them are said to make it through the Gates.

 

[ChristineM]

the Catholic religion is a product of at least three religious traditions: Biblical Christianity, Greek philosophy and the pagan religions of the Middle East and Europe.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is the Word of God, However it's theologians are strongly influenced by the philosophies of the ancient pagan Greeks, and this colored their teachings. For example, the doctrine of the inherent immortality of the human soul does not appear in the Bible. It was taught by the Greek philosophers and is now sanctified by their adoption into the Church as a fundamental doctrine of Catholicism.

Other pagan beliefs are Christmas, Easter, Saints, Mariology, use of the cross, images in ritual, and the worship of a Trinity.
All these doctrine come not from the Bible, but from pagan religions. The mainstream pew sitters have been told these teachings are biblical, but there not.

John Henry Cardinal Newman in An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine gives a long list of traditional practices, including “incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings, holy water; holidays . . .” he then says that they “are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.”

Additionally there is the practice or acceptance of spiritism, witchcraft, tarot cards, worship of the dead. If this surprises you, then think about Halloween.

In cemeteries, Haitians (Christians) gather after church to ask "the spirit of death" for any number of desires and petitions during the traditional Day of the Dead. Christian participate in these festivities, which combine elements of Christianity and voodoo.

The question: If above is true, can Catholics claim to be true Christians ?

Yes

The Vulgate is the oldest, complete suriving bible. Catholics consider this book their guide. I would therefore say its teachings are closer to the origin of Christianity than any of the later efforts. So it seems by that measure that all the other branches of Christianity are Johnny come latelys..

 

[Mister Emu]

The bible canon of the Hebrew scriptures list 24 books that were recognized by Christ and the early Christians.

So you don't recognize the New Testament?

to give you the names and dates regarding canonicity of each book goes beyond this discussion.

Let's limit it then, when were the four gospels first definitively and exclusively chosen to be in the canon. Who decided that?

The Roman Catholic church unofficially came into being in 312 A.D., at the time of the so-called "miraculous conversion" to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine... https://www.eaec.org/cults/romancatholic.htm

I didn't ask when Rome accepted the Catholic Church, I asked when the Church was first called Catholic. Want to try again?

Also, why do you think that source is an authoritative speaker? They don't offer any sort of credentials in the field of history and they explicitly endorse trinitarianism, calling anyone who doesn't believe in it a cult follower cursed of God, which you called a pagan intervention into the Church, so it wouldn't make sense for you to view that site as a spiritual source of wisdom either.

Catholic means:an amalgamation, blending or merging.

What is the source on this?

Immortality is clearly defined in the bible, as is the ability to murder our fellow man. there is no need for me to redefine these concepts or to seek explanation elsewhere.

I need to understand what you mean by it, here for instance you juxtapose it with human ability to murder when Jesus specifically said that people can't harm the soul.

So, what do you mean by immortal?

 

[SalixIncendium]

The question: If above is true, can Catholics claim to be true Christians ?

No.

Fortunately, there is little to no truth in the "above."

 

[Colt]

the Catholic religion is a product of at least three religious traditions: Biblical Christianity, Greek philosophy and the pagan religions of the Middle East and Europe.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is the Word of God, However it's theologians are strongly influenced by the philosophies of the ancient pagan Greeks, and this colored their teachings. For example, the doctrine of the inherent immortality of the human soul does not appear in the Bible. It was taught by the Greek philosophers and is now sanctified by their adoption into the Church as a fundamental doctrine of Catholicism.

Other pagan beliefs are Christmas, Easter, Saints, Mariology, use of the cross, images in ritual, and the worship of a Trinity.
All these doctrine come not from the Bible, but from pagan religions. The mainstream pew sitters have been told these teachings are biblical, but there not.

John Henry Cardinal Newman in An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine gives a long list of traditional practices, including “incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings, holy water; holidays . . .” he then says that they “are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.”

Additionally there is the practice or acceptance of spiritism, witchcraft, tarot cards, worship of the dead. If this surprises you, then think about Halloween.

In cemeteries, Haitians (Christians) gather after church to ask "the spirit of death" for any number of desires and petitions during the traditional Day of the Dead. Christian participate in these festivities, which combine elements of Christianity and voodoo.

The question: If above is true, can Catholics claim to be true Christians ?

Catholics are as much Christians as any other sect growing out of Paul’s personal opinions about Jesus.

The gospel of Jesus changed after the cross and ascension, so we should be respectful of the various interpretations that evolved into Christ-ian sects.

 

[Kooky]

Oh that was quite common among the Puritans, I think.

Sure, but back then, fundamentalist Christians weren't convinced there was an atheist "war on Christmas" going on.
It just feels delightfully anachronistic to me.