Interpretation of the Shastras

[RamaRaksha]

It is reasonable to suppose that any book written a long time ago is subject interpretation mistakes. We also need to account for the fact that meanings of words change over time.

A member commented that one should get rid of desires, that that is the path of Moksha. I tend to feel that it is not the desires that are the problem, but the control of such desires. Uncontrolled desires are the problem (with exceptions).

I have given the example of the lowly ant. The ant goes about its business, running non-stop all day, brainless like a robot, going about its karmic duties. Does it even know for whom or what it is working for? The warrior ant will lay down its life without any hesitation. Again i do not think it appreciates its sacrifice. And this is the path to Moksha?

People like Tata, Birla, Ambani, Bill Gates have been fuelled by their desires. They have become rich but in the process they have benefited millions! Millions go to bed with their belly full because of these men chasing their dreams.

When I was in school, I strove to get the top marks in class in every test. This desire made me work hard, forced me to make sacrifices, and in the end made me a better student. Or I could have slept all day in class not paying any attention to the teacher. Apparantly I should have done the latter?

 

[Madhuri]

I personally do believe that desires bring us back again and again. This is because our consciousness determines our bodily destination, and as long as the consciousness is filled with desire it will come back to a body that can filfill that desire.

However:

We cannot attain liberation BY getting rid of desires. It doesn't work that way. In fact, if we sit around trying to not desire something, we will only desire it more- or at least think about it much more. We should not spend too much time worrying about our desires. I think the best thing to do is come to terms with your feelings; acknowledge them. Then try to maintain balance in your life. These desires will go away eventually, by themselves, when you progress in God consciousness. You don't have to worry about them, they will go eventually as you come closer to enlightenment.

 

[bp789]

I don't think it's the desires that are the problem, it is the attachment. It is normal to have desires, but one should not be attached to those desires. The only thing a person should be attached to is God. King Janak from Ramayana was a king, had three wives, children, but he remained free from attachments.

Oh, and while on the interpretation thing, I read that it said in the Ramayana, that Lord Rama killed Shambuk, a Shudra, for doing tapas, which only high castes were allowed to do. Ironically, the sage who wrote the Ramayana was a Shudra/Dalit, so I'm confused about this issue.

 

[nameless]

A member commented that one should get rid of desires, that that is the path of Moksha. I tend to feel that it is not the desires that are the problem, but the control of such desires. Uncontrolled desires are the problem (with exceptions).

Having controlled or uncontrolled desires a person would not be satisfied, want more wordly comforts. Surely, he wishes to stay in this world, and will stay.

I have given the example of the lowly ant. The ant goes about its business, running non-stop all day, brainless like a robot, going about its karmic duties. Does it even know for whom or what it is working for? The warrior ant will lay down its life without any hesitation. Again i do not think it appreciates its sacrifice. And this is the path to Moksha?

Every living beings have brain, brain which helps them to make their own living. Incase of ant, yes they know for what they are working for and that is for their food. But i agree that they are like robots, it is due to lack of awareness. Awareness has huge role when it comes to spirituality. Also they have attachments and desires. Just impossible to consider their life for attaining moksha.

People like Tata, Birla, Ambani, Bill Gates have been fuelled by their desires. They have become rich but in the process they have benefited millions! Millions go to bed with their belly full because of these men chasing their dreams.

Their aim of businessmen is to become the worlds richest guy, employment is only byproduct of that. I agree that hard working people is necessary for the development of a nation, but in majority cases they go in a wrong way. Im completely against your opinion that these people are doing good for the nation. Just condsidering India, Indians have $1456 billion in Swiss banks, the second comes russia with $ 470 billion. This amount is about 13 times larger than the country’s foreign debt. With this amount every indian gets Rs.50,000. Once this huge amount of black money and property comes back to India, the entire foreign debt can be repaid in 24 hours. After paying the entire foreign debt, we will have surplus amount, almost 12 times larger than the foreign debt. If this surplus amount is invested in earning interest, the amount of the interest will be more than the annual budget of the Central government. So even if all the taxes are abolished, then also the Central government will be able to maintain the country very comfortably.

Also note that a third of the global poor resides in India, its not surprising since Indians have $1456 billion in Swiss banks. This will happen when people become deficient of ethics, so the spirituality has the more role for the upliftment of the people. Just imagine the amount a nation spends for their defence. Even if all nations gets enough rich they will only spend them to strengthen their army leaving their population under poverty.

Take the life of Buddha example, Being son of a king, he could make his empire more wealthy, even after getting enlightened he did not ruled the country, instead he tried to spread spirituality, the world is even benefited today by his effort.

When I was in school, I strove to get the top marks in class in every test. This desire made me work hard, forced me to make sacrifices, and in the end made me a better student. Or I could have slept all day in class not paying any attention to the teacher. Apparantly I should have done the latter?

First of all its personal choice to live spiritual or wordly. But to be spiritual and would like to have libertation he need to drop desires, here it is not lazyness, he is aiming something else which is so hard. It is always better getting involved in something than being lazy. In the world today, eduacation is always helpfull for whatever sort of living, giving some effort for that is good. I dont think students who is sitting lazy is aiming spirituality. But never considers anyone inferior, they might be good at something else.

 

[RamaRaksha]

I personally do believe that desires bring us back again and again. This is because our consciousness determines our bodily destination, and as long as the consciousness is filled with desire it will come back to a body that can filfill that desire.
However:
We cannot attain liberation BY getting rid of desires. It doesn't work that way. In fact, if we sit around trying to not desire something, we will only desire it more- or at least think about it much more. We should not spend too much time worrying about our desires. I think the best thing to do is come to terms with your feelings; acknowledge them. Then try to maintain balance in your life. These desires will go away eventually, by themselves, when you progress in God consciousness. You don't have to worry about them, they will go eventually as you come closer to enlightenment.

Agreed, but why let desires go away? Bjorn Borg had a desire to become the best tennis player in the world! Michael Jordan the same desires. It is desires, or goals that fuel us to reach for the stars.

Every year thousands of young men and women take tests to get into medical and engineegin colleges. Some to get into careers like IAS. They are chasing their dreams, and to me become better for it. They work hard, they study night and day, make sacrifices, become more intelligent, and are the future of this country!

 

[RamaRaksha]

I don't think it's the desires that are the problem, it is the attachment. It is normal to have desires, but one should not be attached to those desires. The only thing a person should be attached to is God. King Janak from Ramayana was a king, had three wives, children, but he remained free from attachments.

Oh, and while on the interpretation thing, I read that it said in the Ramayana, that Lord Rama killed Shambuk, a Shudra, for doing tapas, which only high castes were allowed to do. Ironically, the sage who wrote the Ramayana was a Shudra/Dalit, so I'm confused about this issue.

Please see my answe above. Also Valmiki's Ramayana stops after God Rama returns from the forest and reclaims his Kingdom. The part that you mention was written by someone else, god knows who, could be by someone who was against Hinduism. For us Hindus only the Ramayana written by Valmiki is taken as authentic. By the way Valmiki did not write about Sita later being sent away to the forest either.

 

[Madhuri]

Agreed, but why let desires go away? Bjorn Borg had a desire to become the best tennis player in the world! Michael Jordan the same desires. It is desires, or goals that fuel us to reach for the stars.

Every year thousands of young men and women take tests to get into medical and engineegin colleges. Some to get into careers like IAS. They are chasing their dreams, and to me become better for it. They work hard, they study night and day, make sacrifices, become more intelligent, and are the future of this country!

Yes, determination to fulfill desires can lead to good things. But any material aim or goal is bound to keep us here. I mean, we are only in the material world because we have the desire to partake in activities that are relevent to it. As long as we want to compete or have attachment to fame or getting degrees etc. we will remain bound to this existence. An important point to make is that this is not 'bad'. Being in this world is natural. It is only if we want to be out of here that we must eventually find God and lose attachment to worldy things, including material achievements. What happens when we get closer to God is that nothing else really matters any more. Material desires vanish naturally. We don't even have to try to stop desiring because it is part of the process of Realisation.

 

[Madhuri]

Please see my answe above. Also Valmiki's Ramayana stops after God Rama returns from the forest and reclaims his Kingdom. The part that you mention was written by someone else, god knows who, could be by someone who was against Hinduism. For us Hindus only the Ramayana written by Valmiki is taken as authentic. By the way Valmiki did not write about Sita later being sent away to the forest either.

That is very interesting. I had not considered it before. I never did like the story of Sita being banished to the forest. I wonder who wrote that one.

 

[RamaRaksha]

"Incase of ant, yes they know for what they are working for and that is for their food. But i agree that they are like robots, it is due to lack of awareness. Awareness has huge role when it comes to spirituality. Also they have attachments and desires. Just impossible to consider their life for attaining moksha."

What attachments, what desires? The ant blindly goes about its job, like a robot. It's not even self-aware. But according to you this should get it Moksha. You can't argue both ways.

"Their aim of businessmen is to become the worlds richest guy, employment is only byproduct of that."

Does it matter? They are still making a difference in the lifes of others, do they not? And do you think they do not realise that as their company grows they will need more people? You can play the lottery and become rich too. For example one person plays the lottery and wins 10 million, another works hard and makes a million. Who is the person to be admired here?

"I agree that hard working people is necessary for the development of a nation, but in majority cases they go in a wrong way"

Where? How do you figure that? Without any businesssmen any country will be dirt poor. Take the oil rich middle east countries. They are rich only because of their oil, whereas Isreal which has no oil, is still rich because of its Entrprenuers, Engineers, highly educated people! These are the people, driven by their desire to succeed, are what makes a nation rich and prosperous.

"Im completely against your opinion that these people are doing good for the nation"

Of course, it is quite easy to hate the rich guy. He has what we all want. Nice house, nice car, the luxuries of life, health security. Makes it easy for us to think he must have acquired the wealth dishonestly.

The guy who used to get top marks in school? of course he was cheating.

"Just condsidering India, Indians have $1456 billion in Swiss banks, the second comes russia with $ 470 billion. This amount is about 13 times larger than the country’s foreign debt."

You are not keeping up with the times. The swiss govt now says those numbers are false. They gaurd the privacy of their account holders and the value of the deposits. Unless the swiss banks themselves release those numbers, you can't trust your numbers.

"Also note that a third of the global poor resides in India"

Yes, and why? Because for decades we pursued the wrong policies. It is a shame that even communist china freed their country from socialistic thinking 10 years before we did, and now we are desperately trying to catch up. India is now growing in leaps and bounds. Why is that? Today we freed the individual to pursue his or her dreams or desires. We now tell people to work hard, pursue their dreams and fulfil them, and because of these desires, we are on our way towards becoming a rich country!

"Take the life of Buddha example, Being son of a king, he could make his empire more wealthy, even after getting enlightened he did not ruled the country, instead he tried to spread spirituality, the world is even benefited today by his effort"

True but you have to admit also that people like Birla, Ambani, Tata etc. also have made a difference in the lives of millions of people. Buddha may have uplifted people spiritually, but these people made a real difference in peoples lives. Look at how christians are converting people using money, exploiting poverty. A poor Buddhist will readily abondon his religion if someone will give him money to save his sick child. It is poverty that is the greatest evil of all!

"But to be spiritual and would like to have libertation he need to drop desires, here it is not lazyness, he is aiming something else which is so hard"

And in the end who does it benefit? Just himself, he gets Moksha? A Tata on the other hand, is making a real difference in the life of millions! I think if you can make the world better, you will get closer to God. If you are selfish and can only think how you can get to Moksha (which by the way is also a desire), then I fear you are going to be disappointed.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Yes, determination to fulfill desires can lead to good things. But any material aim or goal is bound to keep us here. I mean, we are only in the material world because we have the desire to partake in activities that are relevent to it. As long as we want to compete or have attachment to fame or getting degrees etc. we will remain bound to this existence. An important point to make is that this is not 'bad'. Being in this world is natural. It is only if we want to be out of here that we must eventually find God and lose attachment to worldy things, including material achievements. What happens when we get closer to God is that nothing else really matters any more. Material desires vanish naturally. We don't even have to try to stop desiring because it is part of the process of Realisation.

I am asking you to question what you think is the path to Moksha. That was the point of this thread. Someone interpreted the Gita as getting rid of desires being the path to Moksha, and I am saying that he is wrong. It's like finding a treasure map full of clues and if you pursue the wrong clues, you end up somewhere else.

I can't believe that God gave us this wonderful life of a human being, with a mind that thinks and wonders, only to ask us to lead the life of a robot, like an ant. I am afraid that you may be reborn as an ant, since that is the life you think is best.

Once having a car was frowned and mocked by people - today it is a necessity. Today Indians are buying millions of cars every year. How many factories are there around the world, giving employment to millions, making cars? Do you know that the pakistani terrorists who killed innocents in mumbai were dirt poor? They were promised money to go kill, not that it excuses what they did, but poverty is the greatest of all evils. If these young men had a job, something that could feed and clothe them, then they would not be killing people.

Having desires is not wrong. I always had the desire to get the topmost marks in every school or college test that i took. It made me work hard, appreciate the value of hard work, led me to make sacrifices. Unfortunately I did not always succeed. When I saw others who got better marks than me, only then did i realize how hard they must have worked. The person who gets bad marks, will never realize the hard work that someone puts in to get good marks. He takes the easy way out - the person who got good marks cheats, of course!

What is wrong is to cheat and use bad means to acheive those desires. That is what the Gita was trying to say. That distinction is being lost here. Krishna did not implore the Pandavas not to fight, but fight in a dharmic way.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Just think of the difference between someone who is pursuing Moksha by dropping all desires and someone like Jimmy Carter. Carter is what in his 70's or 80's? Every day he gets up and does good works, he is heavily involved in Habitabat for Humanity - an organisation that builds houses for poor people. Businesess (there go those evil ones again) donate the raw materials, and people like Jimmy Carter donate their time and expertize to get the houses built.

Now Carter is not thinking of how he is going to get to Moksha. All he is thinking of how he is going to help his fellow man. He has a burning desire to make this a better world, to take the pain away from people who are suffering.

And this is wrong? The guy sitting at home, not making an iota of difference to his fellow man, doing a puja, is the one that God likes? I am sorry this is wrong. You are on the wrong path.

Finally remember, we are a Teacher faith. God, our Guru, is guiding us on the path towards Moksha. She is there to guide, instruct, encourage and correct, but ultimately we are responsible for our choices. If a student skips classes, a teacher is not going to force him to stay in class. If you make the wrong choices, then you decide your own fate.

 

[Madhuri]

I am asking you to question what you think is the path to Moksha. That was the point of this thread. Someone interpreted the Gita as getting rid of desires being the path to Moksha, and I am saying that he is wrong. It's like finding a treasure map full of clues and if you pursue the wrong clues, you end up somewhere else.

I can't believe that God gave us this wonderful life of a human being, with a mind that thinks and wonders, only to ask us to lead the life of a robot, like an ant. I am afraid that you may be reborn as an ant, since that is the life you think is best.

Once having a car was frowned and mocked by people - today it is a necessity. Today Indians are buying millions of cars every year. How many factories are there around the world, giving employment to millions, making cars? Do you know that the pakistani terrorists who killed innocents in mumbai were dirt poor? They were promised money to go kill, not that it excuses what they did, but poverty is the greatest of all evils. If these young men had a job, something that could feed and clothe them, then they would not be killing people.

Having desires is not wrong. I always had the desire to get the topmost marks in every school or college test that i took. It made me work hard, appreciate the value of hard work, led me to make sacrifices. Unfortunately I did not always succeed. When I saw others who got better marks than me, only then did i realize how hard they must have worked. The person who gets bad marks, will never realize the hard work that someone puts in to get good marks. He takes the easy way out - the person who got good marks cheats, of course!

What is wrong is to cheat and use bad means to acheive those desires. That is what the Gita was trying to say. That distinction is being lost here. Krishna did not implore the Pandavas not to fight, but fight in a dharmic way.

What Krishna taught was to do your duty and live your life without attachment to fruitive results. I'm afraid that material goals and achievements fall into that catagory. Again, this is not wrong or bad but it will keep you in the material world. If you are a good person and work very hard then you ar elikely to be born into a good life; but that life will still be in the material world.
I should emphasise again that to attain liberation the equation is not:

losing desires ---> moksha

it is:

Discover God---> lose desires

As we become closer to God we lose attachment to fruitive work and things material. It is a natural process. In the meantime it is important to strive to be a good person and to do good. Being lazy is not good because it is a sign of being in the mode of ignorance. Having determination and motivation to doing one's duty or to reach your best potential is in the mode of goodness. It is a good thing but the need for it, or desire for it will slowly disappear as you come closer to Realisation.

The human body is wonderful as it allows us to use our intelligence and morality and empathy to further ourselves in both spiritual and/or material ways. But remember that we have been through every form of life including germs and plants etc. We have existed forever. We are incredibly fortunate to finally be in a human form. But even in this human form we are trapped by maya, which is the covering of this universe. Maya creates the illusion of duality. We think we are completely seperate and we are generally selfish creatures. We cannot understand our connection to the Divine and to everythign in existence. So we do care about being better than others in our class and so on. When we finally realise that nothing we do in this material world that is not done in God Consciousness is a waste of time then we also attain liberation.

Nobody here is at such a stage, or even close. If we were, we would not be in this world.

 

[Madhuri]

Just think of the difference between someone who is pursuing Moksha by dropping all desires and someone like Jimmy Carter. Carter is what in his 70's or 80's? Every day he gets up and does good works, he is heavily involved in Habitabat for Humanity - an organisation that builds houses for poor people. Businesess (there go those evil ones again) donate the raw materials, and people like Jimmy Carter donate their time and expertize to get the houses built.

Now Carter is not thinking of how he is going to get to Moksha. All he is thinking of how he is going to help his fellow man. He has a burning desire to make this a better world, to take the pain away from people who are suffering.

And this is wrong? The guy sitting at home, not making an iota of difference to his fellow man, doing a puja, is the one that God likes? I am sorry this is wrong. You are on the wrong path.

Finally remember, we are a Teacher faith. God, our Guru, is guiding us on the path towards Moksha. She is there to guide, instruct, encourage and correct, but ultimately we are responsible for our choices. If a student skips classes, a teacher is not going to force him to stay in class. If you make the wrong choices, then you decide your own fate.

Everything you do should be done with love and affection, with God in your mind and heart.
We do our duty, because this is good and we help others because this is also good.
I am not disputing this.

But it is neither right for a person to do good and not care about God. Without wanting to realise Oneself and God there is no liberation.

We are not talking about what is good or bad. We are talking about liberation. Even the liberated come back here to do good. But they do not desire material goods or benefits. There's a difference. Doing good is selfless, it is born of love. Having material desire is selfish (usually), it is born of ignorance and illusion (maya). Again, it is not either 'good' or 'bad'...it is natural.

 

[nameless]

Go to the forest and hold your nose and repeat God's name that gets us Moksha? God wants a brainless slave, thinking only of him? Your God seems to have an ego that is only satisfied by thinking of him constantly.

The ant blindly goes about its job, like a robot. It's not even self-aware. But according to you this should get it Moksha

Of course, it is quite easy to hate the rich guy. He has what we all want. Nice house, nice car, the luxuries of life, health security. Makes it easy for us to think he must have acquired the wealth dishonestly.

The guy who used to get top marks in school? of course he was cheating.

you are just putting words into my mouth, kindly avoid guessing others faith.

 

[anupj]

this thread was given the title "interpretation of the shastras", and the discussion goes about way of getting moksha, and way of living, if i have interpreted it right... if not please clarify...
in either case i have a few questions for the thread opener, it would be nice if he answers them.

which shastras are you talking about?(there are many e.g. Bhautika Shastra (physics), Rasayana Shastra (Chemistry), Jeeva Shastra (Biology), Vaastu Shastra (architectural science), Shilpa Shastra (science of sculpture) and Artha Shastra( Economics), Neeti Shastra (political science))
or are you talking about the whole sacred scriptures such as upanishads, samhitas, vedas etc.?

have you read the shastras?if yes, then which shastras have u read?
what conclusion did you draw by reading those shastras?
in which areas did you find that people interpreted them wrongly/right? which points do you agree to?

what is your idea about moksha(i request you to again clarify if already you have posted)?
do you believe in the concept of maya as described by hinduism?
is there any way for a person who is deeply involved/immersed in maya, still he can attain moksha without getting away from the so called maya?

plz enlighten me with your answer to the above questions.

regards, may god bless you

 

[nameless]

i agree with anupj, your comments has nothing to do with concept of moksha in existing shasthras. If you think you are correct, i request you to write a new shashtra.

 

[zenzero]

Friend RamRaksha,

A member commented that one should get rid of desires, that that is the path of Moksha. I tend to feel that it is not the desires that are the problem, but the control of such desires. Uncontrolled desires are the problem (with exceptions).

*THOUGHTS* are that which keeps the individual away from *MOKSHA*. An enlightened person is one whose mind is *FREE* from thoughts. An enlightened person is just a CONCIOUS person. Thoughts mainly arise because of desires. Thoughts are just like seeds of energy and these seeds keep growing and so does the energy expands. So we find people desiring money going after it or some follow some other desire by thinking more and more on the subject and using their energies towards fulfilling that desire.
Once it is understood that that world each individual creates is only through his thoughts and so are not REALITY but MAYA/ILLUSION then a change takes place or one becomes CONSCIOUS and this conscious starts to grow like a light brought to darkness and one realises that as darkness is not available near a light similarly desires and thoughts also are not available near consciousness.
Love & rgds

 

[RamaRaksha]

Everything you do should be done with love and affection, with God in your mind and heart.
We do our duty, because this is good and we help others because this is also good.
I am not disputing this.

But it is neither right for a person to do good and not care about God. Without wanting to realise Oneself and God there is no liberation.

We are not talking about what is good or bad. We are talking about liberation. Even the liberated come back here to do good. But they do not desire material goods or benefits. There's a difference. Doing good is selfless, it is born of love. Having material desire is selfish (usually), it is born of ignorance and illusion (maya). Again, it is not either 'good' or 'bad'...it is natural.

What is India's most famous export? IT Services - how many millions are going to bed happy that they have a job? Because of whom? the US consumer! India also wants to become a big garment exporter, employing millions! Without the US consumer fulfulling his or her "selfish" desires, millions would be out in the street, taking to crime! The world would be a horrible place!

It is quite easy to see the man give a rupee to a begger and think of how he is doing good, not so easy to see a person like Tata or Bill Gates making a difference in the lives of millions!

There is an old saying - Feed a man a fish and you feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish and you feed him for the rest of his life!

A perfect world is not one where there are millions of good people helping needy people - a perfect world is one where there are no needy people, no beggers asking for handouts - this is where India is desperately trying to get to.

And how is this going to happen? By creating jobs! And these are created by people running after their desires, people like Bill Gates, Tata, Ambani etc. But all these people would not succeed if there is no general population to buy their products!

When you buy a product in a store - a shirt for example - the farmer worked hard to produce the cotton, sells it to a middle man, and can then feed his family. The middle man sells the cotton to a factory. The factory workers turn the cotton into a shirt. The machines the workers work on are themselves been made by other workers in other factories. The shirt is sold to a store near you. See the guy at the counter selling you that shirt? The guy at the checkout counter taking your money?

All these jobs created becasue of desires! All these people able to clothe and feed their families because of your desires.

Desires are not wrong - it is the lack of control of those desires that is wrong. You should not buy the shirt if you cannot afford it, that is the lack of control of a desire.

You talk as if there is a disconnect between doing good and bad and liberation. I say they are connected. One guy sits in a temple praying to God all day, while a second, an atheist, goes about helping people. Who do you think God will liberate? Don't be selfish by thinking of just yourself, make this a better world and you are well on your way towards Moksha.

 

[RamaRaksha]

you are just putting words into my mouth, kindly avoid guessing others faith.

I am sorry if you are offended. That was my interpretation of what you wrote.

 

[RamaRaksha]

this thread was given the title "interpretation of the shastras", and the discussion goes about way of getting moksha, and way of living, if i have interpreted it right... if not please clarify...
in either case i have a few questions for the thread opener, it would be nice if he answers them.

which shastras are you talking about?(there are many e.g. Bhautika Shastra (physics), Rasayana Shastra (Chemistry), Jeeva Shastra (Biology), Vaastu Shastra (architectural science), Shilpa Shastra (science of sculpture) and Artha Shastra( Economics), Neeti Shastra (political science))
or are you talking about the whole sacred scriptures such as upanishads, samhitas, vedas etc.?

have you read the shastras?if yes, then which shastras have u read?
what conclusion did you draw by reading those shastras?
in which areas did you find that people interpreted them wrongly/right? which points do you agree to?

what is your idea about moksha(i request you to again clarify if already you have posted)?
do you believe in the concept of maya as described by hinduism?
is there any way for a person who is deeply involved/immersed in maya, still he can attain moksha without getting away from the so called maya?

plz enlighten me with your answer to the above questions.

regards, may god bless you

Please see my first post. To me, debating on what a book says without intepreting its meaning is rote learning.