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Interesting Take on ""I am the way and the truth and the life...

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by HeretoPhilosophize, Oct 18, 2011.

  1. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    Yes precisely....the parables are the focus.
    Without them, He will not see His reflection in you.

    And heaven might then, object to your presence.
    Without wisdom and in the presence of the Sons of God?...(see Job)
     
  2. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    He says he is the Living Torah.
    Torah is the Way.
    Torah is the Truth.
    Torah is the Life.
    No one comes to the Father without Torah.
    In the beginning Y H V H , spoke the Torah, via the Word the world was created.
     
  3. ohhcuppycakee

    ohhcuppycakee Active Member

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    When I read that verse in the Bible, that was my exact interpretation of it!
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    From the LDS perspective, it is only through Jesus Christ that any human being is assured of being physically resurrected at some time in the future. This resurrection, we believe, will be universal. One need not be a Mormon, a Christian, or even a theist in order to be guaranteed a life after this one. We also believe that because of Christ's Atonement, all except a tiny minority of the human race (those who commit the one and only sin for which there is no forgiveness) will ultimately end up in Heaven, and will spend eternity im a far better place than where we now exist. We don't believe, though, that Heaven is a one-size-fits-all kind of place. In other words, greater faithfulness and greater obedience to Jesus Christ's commandments will result in greater blessings in Heaven, including the blessing of being able to actually live in God's presence as eternal families. Though we as human beings are responsible for living in such a way that we are deemed worthy of the greatest heavenly reward, none of what anyone can eventually look forward to receiving would be possible were it not for Jesus Christ.
     
  5. look3467

    look3467 Well-Known Member
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    I somewhat agree with point one on your explanation.

    The "only through Jesus " is absolutely correct in that Jesus represents the new creation of what already exists.

    For example you....and I. We were first made in the likeness of God, meaning that we have the ability to choose between two opposing forces.

    The force for good and the force for evil.

    Given that ability in the first creation, in the flesh, separated/separates us from God as gods therefore, death was the resultant. Spiritual death as well as physical .

    So naturally, death befalls all mankind.

    Because only God Himself could/can/did, correct the situation for the same by offering one individuals verses all of us to the "lost condition" due to the creation making.

    That is why, for all mankind, Jesus is that one individual, as God, providing us with a way of escape from the pangs of eternal death. (Separation)

    Jesus is the "New Creation" of which does not see death. (Spiritually speaking because He was God in the flesh)

    Because He paid the price for all of us as an individual, (One) He then is the new creature of which we are/will be, if not now, eventually.

    Regardless of the world's religions, and all unbelievers, the price for their souls has already been paid. So it matters not what you believe or you don't believe.

    Many will believe while yet alive and spread the good news at a cost, and many will not believe at a loss.

    As for point 2 in your explanation, I don't believe in graduations/degrees/levels or rings of closeness to God in heaven simply because there was no degree to the price paid by Jesus for our souls.

    The price paid was the "sting of death" meaning, if Jesus had not paid the price, we, would die to nonexistence. That would have made this life of none effect and not worth the suffering and pain to live it.

    But because life in the flesh is now worth the living because of hope, life then takes on a deeper meaning. One of appreciation amidst the sufferings and pain.

    In the midst of hell, which I contend is this life, life eternal is born, love is born and who we are is born to live forever as us, and not just a mere drop in the ocean of souls, lost in the whole.

    In this world everything has degrees, by human intellect, some things are better than others.
    But in spiritual intellect, we are all the same, purchased and paid for in total as one.

    What God has enabled us to do/be is have a fleshly body, experience suffering by reason of subjection , enjoy the benefits of choice as gods, and in and by which life is born.

    Eternal Life is born not a at our birth of our flesh, but at the rebirth of our spirit.

    All's the flesh does is define us as to who we are, and at death, well......only memories....that is, if they were worth the memorial.

    The bible left us with this saying which tells us what are responsibilities are that we can control, that we can manage within the scope of our power, and that is "what you sow that shall ye reap".

    As for the eternal part? That was never in our hands to decide.

    Blessings, AJ



    Without it, you will have never existed.
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    That's okay. I realize most Christians don't see it the way the LDS do, but I do believe there is scriptural support for our position. (Kind of off the topic of this particular thread, though.) I agree with you, though, that all of us are in need of a Savior. There is no one who could attain Heaven without Jesus Christ.
     
  7. look3467

    look3467 Well-Known Member
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    I am very comfortable with your views. I believe that a soul who seeks God seeks Him with their heart, not their religion.
    I therefore am your brother, as that is the key note of Jesus, "Love one another as God has loved us".

    Blessings, AJ
     
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  8. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    In John 5 Jesus says, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    I believe Jesus himself, not his teachings, gives eternal life freely to all who trust in him. Jesus paid our sin-debt (the penalty of sin is death) by dying on the cross. When we trust him for that we are saved to the uttermost forevermore. Salvation is not achieved, it is received; it is not attained but obtained, it is a free gift.

    No amount of morality, forgiveness and loving our neighbor will do, for all our righteousness is as filthy rags before a holy God as far as salvation is concerned and when we break one law of God, we are guilty of all, for God is infinitely holy and even one sin is infinitely offensive to him. We all have sinned, the penalty is death, so Jesus died in our place. When we come to him and trust him for that, then we are saved.

    This is what he meant when he said he is the way and no one comes to the Father but by him, because he alone died for us and was able to pay for our sins and he alone has risen from the grave. Trust alone in Christ alone is the only way. That is my belief.
     
  9. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    So the parables are not a saving grace?
    His life and words have no value?...no merit?...no purpose?

    And therefore...only His blood meant anything?

    He was born to die?...something 'special' about that 'blood'?
    His life meant nothing?

    Obviously you are mistaken.

    Jesus did not save anyone by dying.
    His sacrifice was performed in living .....God's will.
    Teaching.

    Stand before the angels ignorant of the teaching?
    What do you think separates you from all the other people on this earth?

    A simple claim that some Carpenter died for you?

    Your sins are your own...and are not removed by blood.
    Scapegoating never did work.

    Actually seeking salvation?...wanting to say the Carpenter is the one?
    Yeah.
    Now read those parables.
    Without them you are not one of His.
     
  10. Plato

    Plato Member

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    'No one comes to the Father except through me'.
    I'd say there is a lot more to it than just following Jesus's teachings (although that's an important part of it). There's the whole history of Jesus and God revealed throughout the Bible. For Christian believers (as I understand it) Jesus is the 'culmination' of humans experience with God that starts with Gods creating humans and way back with Abraham c.2000BC and runs up through Jesus c.33AD. That Jesus is the end point, the 'omega' the purpose of the whole experience from the creation to Jesus. That he was there at the begining and is the end as the intended and promised Messiah and universal savior of all mankind.
    So, when he says....no one comes to the Father except through me...he is referring to that 'he Jesus', was always the whole point intended and planned right from the begining of God's experience with humans because only through Jesus are humans granted eternal life, something God did not originally create them with but wanted them to have through His plan (as layed out from the begining of the Bible culminating with Jesus). So, according to this view Jesus is like a 'doorway' for humans to go through to have eternal life and return to communing with God, and that's why he said it.
     
  11. look3467

    look3467 Well-Known Member
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    The first creation = The Father was the way......problem though...the Father's creation enabled us to exist in the flesh as gods, but with a separation clause = death spiritually.

    Up an until Jesus, there was no other way. Period!

    So, in order for the Father to recoup His lost creation, He must re-create the spiritual end of our existence. Thus, Jesus is our spiritual end by having Him pay the price of our separation (Spiritual death) and become resurrected into a new spiritual creation of which now there is a new heavens and a new earth.

    Don't look at the new heavens and a new earth with the physical eye because you won't see it. But look at it with your new born spirit and you shall see that the heavens are now opened and the gates of hell no longer entrap any soul.

    Why? Because The Father in Jesus broke asunder the gates of hell and opened the gates of heaven enabling us to enter in before out time is up on this earth.

    Not being privy to this information only keeps us from reaching the entrance to heavens benefits while yet alive in the flesh. Not that God won't honor our desire to be right with Him with whatever views we hold.

    Jesus then, is our only escape because we are no longer under the Father's creation spiritually, only physically, but under Jesus' new creation.

    While in the flesh, a rebirth experience spiritually is a must for the conversion of our souls spirit dead state; a must be renewed.

    All souls, believer and unbelievers alike fall under the same category of being lost in the Father's creation and by the same token all souls will be saved by the Son's creation.

    It is not so much our spiritual end we have control over, but in the receiving of it.

    Most religious beliefs don't quite accept the life and teachings of Jesus as a means to their salvation and therefore believe that by human merit, it may be gained.

    To them is what the good news of Jesus is lacking. That is then our responsibility to introduce them to it without any judgment as to what they already believe.

    For it is not up to us to call on them, but to God's Spirit to lead them to us for introduction.

    If we botch it up by our own misbehaving, those opportunities are held back un5il we get our lives right with God again.

    Mean time, our misbehaving s will not go unpunished by this world, but will also deter others from coming to Jesus.

    Life for many in this world can be hell, and to those we owe it to introduce them to Jesus who will in-turn take control and rebuild, convert their souls into new creatures as only God can do.

    The sooner some of you come to the knowledge of Jesus' saving power while in th flesh, the sooner you will experience heavens blessings.

    Blessings, AJ
     
  12. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    Sure they do, if we have trusted in Christ and his finished work on the cross to have saved us, he lives in us and empowers us to grow and be like him.

    without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:22b

    20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself, And you, hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death; from Col. 1:20-22

    But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

    for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood...from Rev. 5:9

    Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev. 1:5b

    the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1John 1:7b

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things...But with the precious blood of Christ, from 1 Peter 1:18=-20

    Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Heb. 13:12

    In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins, Col. 1:14

    But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Eph. 2:13

    In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, Eph. 1:7
     
  13. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    Good question. I suggest you spend daily time reading the Bible. When you do, it should become clear that although atheists and agnostics inadvertently follow some of Christ teaching's, they miss the central point. Jesus's greatest command is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength-Matthew 22:37. Ephesians 2:8-9 shows that we saved by God's grace. The story within the Bible is about God's relationship with man, and God redeeming man to himself. Everything else falls under that. Without getting into other issues for the moment, What point would it be for agnostics to go to heaven if they do not wish to be close to God and serving God forever and ever? That's what it will be.
    That is my response.
    Take care.
    P.S. - I am not fundamentalist.
     
    #33 e.r.m., Nov 22, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2011
  14. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    In light of the verse referenced by the OP where Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the light and no man comes to the Father but by him, I would suggest the greatest command he gave was to believe in him for eternal life as he is quoted numerous times in John.

    John 6:29
    Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    1 John 3:23
    And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

    While loving God with all your heart, etc. is something to strive for, when he said it he was trying to show a young man who thought he had kept the Law that he really hadn't as nobody can love God like that all the time. He was trying to show him his need for Jesus as Saviour. He said that they search the scriptures but the scriptures speak of Jesus, who is what they really need. These are a few verses that say to believe in Jesus for eternal life. (there are many more with just believe, believe in/on, etc.):


    1. John 3:15
      That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    2. John 3:16
      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    3. John 3:18
      He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    4. John 3:36
      He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
      John 3:35-36 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
    5. John 5:24
      Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    6. John 6:35
      And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    7. John 6:40
      And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
      John 6:39-41 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
    8. John 6:47
      Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    9. John 7:38
      He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    10. John 11:25
      Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    11. John 11:26
      And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
      J
    12. John 12:44
      Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
    13. John 12:46
      I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
     
  15. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    I think they go hand in hand, but you're right. I should have mentioned it. God reedeming man to Himself through Christ. Point being, you don't get saved or go to heaven on you're own. Christianity is God/Christ based.
     
    #35 e.r.m., Nov 23, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
  16. chinu

    chinu Businessman.

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    means "re-union" with from where we all started the journey of life in the beginning.
    Yes this was true for that time. :) But not now.

    _/\_
    Chinu
     
  17. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    Au contraire,

    (NASB) Hebrews 13:8
    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
     
  18. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    I concur.

    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12
     
  19. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    Great, we agree.
     
  20. javajo

    javajo Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure we probably agree on a lot of things. :)
     
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