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Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
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I recently had said that monotheism is a contradiction because it is impossible to not be of the Universe yet be involved in it in so many ways. That's probably not true. I mean, look at the Internet. I'm interacting with all of you despite not being in your house. But exactly what does God do to cause the interaction between himself and the prayers and worship and other ways people connect to him? I know there's Jesus, the Son, who is supposed to be God incarnate himself, which I would argue almost makes Christianity a non-monotheistic religion. Does God operate outside the Universe and use telephone lines, satellites, wi-fi, and Bluetooth to connect to us lonely mortals down here on Earth? Of course an omnipotent monotheistic God can do whatever he wants, so he has the ability to interact with the Universe and still not be part of it, in the same way I am not where you are right now and you can still read this.

But in monotheistic religions, is it not a contradiction to believe that God can exist in the Universe in some way? Is the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost part of this Universe or is it part of God? It seems to me that most people who say they are monotheists are more likely closer to what I believe, panentheism. The contradictions and differences between God and the Universe doesn't exist in that theology. Panentheism is really just a combination of pantheism and monotheism if you really think about it. My idea is that there is no cosmic intelligence that created everything, but reality itself is becoming more intelligent due to us. Many people would believe then that I am an atheist but I still ascribe to an idea of an afterlife, eschatology, among many other things that put me more in the realm of the believers.

A monotheistic God should be able allowed to intervene yet not be of this Universe, because of his omnipotence. But realistically what is and should be this interaction between us humans and this God? Is it just Jesus, prayers and "signs" from above, or is there more to it? Jesus was supposed to come back yet most people agree that he still hasn't. The Universe is forever changing, but God never changes, so how does something that never changes is still able to interact with a Universe where things change every single day? If it is not a contradiction to believe that if God never changes, then it is impossible for him to involve himself in our affairs?

I purposely put this in the monotheism forum here on RF. Please, if you ascribe to a monotheistic religion, try to explain to me how a God that doesn't change is able to intervene in the behalf of our affairs. I'm really curious as to the theology of what appears to me to be a self-contradiction when they say God isn't nature yet is always intrinsically evolved in the lives of ordinary people. I would argue that most people, even Christians, would argue that there is no direct connection between themselves and God, and that when they pray God doesn't typically directly answer those prayers with spoken words. And if he did ... you'd be considered mentally ill.

So, if you are a monotheist, of any religion, explain to me how God interacts with you despite not being part of the Universe in any way. And please try to explain it to me in a way that isn't the same stories religion teaches. I realize that God can do anything He wishes. If that is the case, why interact with us in a way that is so elusive and brings so many divisions between so many people in history? How can so many people be wrong about the way God interacts with the world yet your beliefs just happen to be the right one? If monotheism is correct, and God does deeply care about us, why isn't this notion built into the very fabric of who we are as a people? Why do so many people argue that either God doesn't intervene, like deism, or doesn't exist at all, like atheism? Why would a monotheistic God create a reality like that? I get there is supposed to be free will involved here, and that free will is important. But why is God willing to cause sin, death, and so many other issues because he gave us free will is beyond my level of understanding and rationale of divinity and God Himself. Unless ... this God isn't omnipotent, and cannot directly change the minds of people, like in the movie Bruce Almighty. But according to your religions, He is.

TL;DR - If you don't want to read my thoughts and still want to contribute to the thread, just explain to non-monotheists, including myself, why God chooses to interact with us humans in the way He does. That's basically all I'm trying to understand at this point.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well. You're asking some very serious questions. First, I consider myself a strict monotheist, but also panentheistic. I see no contradiction there. Also, I agree that God doesn't change, but I understand it differently than I think most others understand it.

That said, when I consider God interacting with the universe, as you put it, I consider it from 2 different perspectives. Is it God interacting with the universe, or is it the universe interacting with God. To me, they are two different things.

God can choose to interact with the universe any way that God chooses to do so. It could be from a distance, indirectly through a chain of interlinked vectors of influence. Some describe these as angels, ( whom I do not think have a will of their own ). Or perhaps God is interacting through the forces of nature. Or perhaps God is interacting through a series of coincidences. Or maybe God is interacting in the form of miracles, completely irrational, unexplainable, supernatural phenomena. These are all possibilities.

The universe interacting with God, in my opinion, is much different. I don't think material beings have those same options. Further, I don't think that plants, or rocks, or birds, or trees, or any other "thing" that exists in the material world can interact with God. God can interact with them, but they cannot interact with God. It's just us humans who can do it. It's not that these things are not holy, or that they are lacking a connection to God. It's just that they do not have the tools to escape this material realm and engage in the divine.

Here in the material world, God's influence, God's connection to everyone and eveything is completely obscured. Everything is brought into existence from God, it is being created concurrently by God, and even the material shell that contains this divinity is being fueled and fed by God. There is a divine vitality that flows into each and eveything that sustains it. It is ALL God, but not that all of it is God in the same way. This godliness, this connection, this flow of vitality is contained by shells, or vessels, which at the same time cause the obscurity such that the divinity that is operating behind the scenes, so to speak, is completely hidden. The result is that the material world, is, for lack of a better word, a lie. It's all an illusion. There is an entire divine realm, superimposed, coexisting with the material realm that is completely hidden and undetectable by any physical observation. It is more real, and more true, than the material which lives and dies, and even if it does not live and die, it breaks down over time.

God is not an illusion. God is not a lie. The divine immaterial realm is completely true. It does not tolerate anything false. False cannot interact with it. In order for interaction with God, it cannot have even the tiniest bit of false comprehension. Any spoken words must be completely true, if the intention is to talk with God. And if God answers, it must be in a way which does not compromise, pollute, or interfere with a pure and true comprehension. Because of this, the manner which God directly interacts with a human, and the method for a human directly interacting with God is limited and unique to each individual. The only thing in common among all is that it must be completely true; it cannot be a lie.

As humans, internally, there are two ways to interact directly with the divine in a way which is 100% true: through thought, or through emotion. There are several methods for doing this. Thoughts can influence emotions. And emotions can influence thoughts. Ritual influences both. Meditation influences both. Prayer is a good method. All of these are employed in world religions with success reported by diverse practioners. Personally I think that emotions are much more reliable and easier to develop in absolute truth. But for some, the intellectual works better.

Conversely, and finally answering your question, through intellect and emotions are also the methods for God to directly interact with humans which do not pollute or interfere with a pure and true comprehension. Comprehension is often incorrectly imagined as isolated to intellectual understanding. But comprehension also can happen through emotions. God can interact through both. Because God does not have a form, and God does not have a shape, and God does not have a voice, a physically perceived revelation will, no doubt, corrupt any comprehension of the direct interaction with God. This will also prohibit future interactions. So, if there is a direct interaction, it will happen through thoughts, having an idea, having a premonition, having an "ah-ha" moment, or realizing the significance of an event in the past. Or it could be a feeling, a bad feeling about a certain situation. Or having a warm feeling about certain situation. Of course these thoughts and feelings can be nothing at all, or they could be coming from God. It takes practice to tell the difference. Or, it could be that no answer will be recieved, but instead God will simply act indirectly through the methods I mentioned early in the this reply: angels, forces of nature, coincidences, miracles, etc...
 
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The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I consider every event in existence to be how God acts through the world. In the same every word in a book is written by the author.
 

Pete in Panama

Active Member
View attachment 76826

I recently had said that monotheism is a contradiction because it is impossible to not be of the Universe yet be involved in it in so many ways. That's probably not true. I mean, look at the Internet. I'm interacting with all of you despite not being in your house. But exactly what does God do to cause the interaction between himself and the prayers and worship and other ways people connect to him? I know there's Jesus, the Son, who is supposed to be God incarnate himself, which I would argue almost makes Christianity a non-monotheistic religion. Does God operate outside the Universe and use telephone lines, satellites, wi-fi, and Bluetooth to connect to us lonely mortals down here on Earth? Of course an omnipotent monotheistic God can do whatever he wants, so he has the ability to interact with the Universe and still not be part of it, in the same way I am not where you are right now and you can still read this.

But in monotheistic religions, is it not a contradiction to believe that God can exist in the Universe in some way? Is the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost part of this Universe or is it part of God? It seems to me that most people who say they are monotheists are more likely closer to what I believe, panentheism. The contradictions and differences between God and the Universe doesn't exist in that theology. Panentheism is really just a combination of pantheism and monotheism if you really think about it. My idea is that there is no cosmic intelligence that created everything, but reality itself is becoming more intelligent due to us. Many people would believe then that I am an atheist but I still ascribe to an idea of an afterlife, eschatology, among many other things that put me more in the realm of the believers.

A monotheistic God should be able allowed to intervene yet not be of this Universe, because of his omnipotence. But realistically what is and should be this interaction between us humans and this God? Is it just Jesus, prayers and "signs" from above, or is there more to it? Jesus was supposed to come back yet most people agree that he still hasn't. The Universe is forever changing, but God never changes, so how does something that never changes is still able to interact with a Universe where things change every single day? If it is not a contradiction to believe that if God never changes, then it is impossible for him to involve himself in our affairs?

I purposely put this in the monotheism forum here on RF. Please, if you ascribe to a monotheistic religion, try to explain to me how a God that doesn't change is able to intervene in the behalf of our affairs. I'm really curious as to the theology of what appears to me to be a self-contradiction when they say God isn't nature yet is always intrinsically evolved in the lives of ordinary people. I would argue that most people, even Christians, would argue that there is no direct connection between themselves and God, and that when they pray God doesn't typically directly answer those prayers with spoken words. And if he did ... you'd be considered mentally ill.

So, if you are a monotheist, of any religion, explain to me how God interacts with you despite not being part of the Universe in any way. And please try to explain it to me in a way that isn't the same stories religion teaches. I realize that God can do anything He wishes. If that is the case, why interact with us in a way that is so elusive and brings so many divisions between so many people in history? How can so many people be wrong about the way God interacts with the world yet your beliefs just happen to be the right one? If monotheism is correct, and God does deeply care about us, why isn't this notion built into the very fabric of who we are as a people? Why do so many people argue that either God doesn't intervene, like deism, or doesn't exist at all, like atheism? Why would a monotheistic God create a reality like that? I get there is supposed to be free will involved here, and that free will is important. But why is God willing to cause sin, death, and so many other issues because he gave us free will is beyond my level of understanding and rationale of divinity and God Himself. Unless ... this God isn't omnipotent, and cannot directly change the minds of people, like in the movie Bruce Almighty. But according to your religions, He is.

TL;DR - If you don't want to read my thoughts and still want to contribute to the thread, just explain to non-monotheists, including myself, why God chooses to interact with us humans in the way He does. That's basically all I'm trying to understand at this point.
Interesting graphic and discussion but somehow the analysis seems so limited that it becomes childlike.

What I see is a basic assumption that locality and and chronology prevail. iow, everything (God included) has a place and time. In the real world, the universe seems to show locality and chronology sometimes, and other times things do not have a place and time. Examples include the quantum (very small) level, or the observable limits (very large) of the universe.

The idea that I'm here and you're there is an imaginary construct that we may be useful to us atm, but it's definitely not reality. Can you follow what I'm saying? I could proceed or explain what I've said --your call.
 

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
I’d Call myself monotheistic To avoid all the scientists who don’t know if the universe is infinite or not. Haha. God is the universe in my eyes or infinite space whatever you wanna call it but my God goes on infinitely. Science gets too weird about it. Scientists are all like “space probably goes on forever but we don’t know.” Well guess what? I know. Ain’t got time for all the ********. Ain’t got time for people who don’t know. Hahaha
 
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DNB

Christian
View attachment 76826

I recently had said that monotheism is a contradiction because it is impossible to not be of the Universe yet be involved in it in so many ways. That's probably not true. I mean, look at the Internet. I'm interacting with all of you despite not being in your house. But exactly what does God do to cause the interaction between himself and the prayers and worship and other ways people connect to him? I know there's Jesus, the Son, who is supposed to be God incarnate himself, which I would argue almost makes Christianity a non-monotheistic religion. Does God operate outside the Universe and use telephone lines, satellites, wi-fi, and Bluetooth to connect to us lonely mortals down here on Earth? Of course an omnipotent monotheistic God can do whatever he wants, so he has the ability to interact with the Universe and still not be part of it, in the same way I am not where you are right now and you can still read this.

But in monotheistic religions, is it not a contradiction to believe that God can exist in the Universe in some way? Is the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost part of this Universe or is it part of God? It seems to me that most people who say they are monotheists are more likely closer to what I believe, panentheism. The contradictions and differences between God and the Universe doesn't exist in that theology. Panentheism is really just a combination of pantheism and monotheism if you really think about it. My idea is that there is no cosmic intelligence that created everything, but reality itself is becoming more intelligent due to us. Many people would believe then that I am an atheist but I still ascribe to an idea of an afterlife, eschatology, among many other things that put me more in the realm of the believers.

A monotheistic God should be able allowed to intervene yet not be of this Universe, because of his omnipotence. But realistically what is and should be this interaction between us humans and this God? Is it just Jesus, prayers and "signs" from above, or is there more to it? Jesus was supposed to come back yet most people agree that he still hasn't. The Universe is forever changing, but God never changes, so how does something that never changes is still able to interact with a Universe where things change every single day? If it is not a contradiction to believe that if God never changes, then it is impossible for him to involve himself in our affairs?

I purposely put this in the monotheism forum here on RF. Please, if you ascribe to a monotheistic religion, try to explain to me how a God that doesn't change is able to intervene in the behalf of our affairs. I'm really curious as to the theology of what appears to me to be a self-contradiction when they say God isn't nature yet is always intrinsically evolved in the lives of ordinary people. I would argue that most people, even Christians, would argue that there is no direct connection between themselves and God, and that when they pray God doesn't typically directly answer those prayers with spoken words. And if he did ... you'd be considered mentally ill.

So, if you are a monotheist, of any religion, explain to me how God interacts with you despite not being part of the Universe in any way. And please try to explain it to me in a way that isn't the same stories religion teaches. I realize that God can do anything He wishes. If that is the case, why interact with us in a way that is so elusive and brings so many divisions between so many people in history? How can so many people be wrong about the way God interacts with the world yet your beliefs just happen to be the right one? If monotheism is correct, and God does deeply care about us, why isn't this notion built into the very fabric of who we are as a people? Why do so many people argue that either God doesn't intervene, like deism, or doesn't exist at all, like atheism? Why would a monotheistic God create a reality like that? I get there is supposed to be free will involved here, and that free will is important. But why is God willing to cause sin, death, and so many other issues because he gave us free will is beyond my level of understanding and rationale of divinity and God Himself. Unless ... this God isn't omnipotent, and cannot directly change the minds of people, like in the movie Bruce Almighty. But according to your religions, He is.

TL;DR - If you don't want to read my thoughts and still want to contribute to the thread, just explain to non-monotheists, including myself, why God chooses to interact with us humans in the way He does. That's basically all I'm trying to understand at this point.
If a potter creates a pot, what is the relationship between the two entities? But, if you take God, who not only created humans, but their entire environment, and both from absolutely nothing, how can God not be in control of every single aspect of their lives, and yet, at the same time, remain transcendent from the physical realm.

There is fundamentally always an immediate disparity between the creator and the creation, and, by necessity, a hierarchy. Especially, when the creator in question is all powerful - the creator of all things seen and unseen.

To create something from absolutely nothing, requires no mechanisms or guidewires, electronic pulses or wavelengths, tools or material. Therefore, to ask how, logistically, God can intervene in the lives of man is somewhat naive - if the creator can cause something to exist, and form and shape it in any manner that he likes, and, by doing so, exemplify his transcendence. Then, by the same might and prerogative, he can, at will, still interact in any manner possible with his creation - via sounds, physical forces, weather, angels, celestial signs, desires and intuitions, theophanies, epiphanies - all manipulated by the same power that he employed in order to create them in the first place.

As far as the allowance of evil is concerned, I believe that it requires man to appreciate exactly how precious and a responsibility that free-will is. To simply hand it to man as a gift, will not elicit the desired reaction - as the world has shown. Freedom is a privilege that must be exercised with wisdom and prudence, or else we end up with a cesspool of a planet that we have now.

Man has to learn that the life that God has given him, and the ability to love and be loved freely, comes with a great price. These attributes cannot be taken for granted, and must be revered and coveted as to what is due - everything.

Unfortunately, the lesson has to be learnt the hard way, just as Adam and Eve had to appreciate the value of obeying their Creator, and the consequence of not doing so. To give someone a gift in the most efficacious manner, requires that the receiver realizes what he's receiving and why - no matter how they attain to that cognizance.
 
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