Interacting with gods and spirits - Assumptions we make

[Quintessence]

In reading a section of a book this morning on animism, the author talked about how animism as an idea acts as an alternative paradigm to materialism. Instead of relating to the world around us as mere "things," animism instead teaches that these things are persons - individuals with agency and will. The author goes on to discuss some ideas on how we can relate to these other-than-human persons in our Pagan traditions.

Perhaps because the section prior was about foundational assumptions, I found myself thinking about the assumptions we make as Pagans when approaching the other-than-human persons in our traditions. The author wrote that we approach relations and interactions with other-than-human persons in much the same way we approach human persons. Concepts like reciprocity, politeness, and so on are considered relevant and important.

But are they? If these persons are not human, why might we assume that the way they manage relationships mirrors how humans manage them?

To give an example for clarity, it is common practice when harvesting trees and herbs to ask the Spirit of the Plant for permission. This is something I often do myself, but what assumptions am I making here? I am I asking permission for myself or do the Plant Spirits themselves have interest in this gesture?

I have an answer to that question, but I'd rather leave it an open one for now to instead prompt us to reflect and do think. When interacting with gods and spirits, why do you approach them in the ways that you do? What assumptions underlie the way you treat the gods and spirits? Where did these assumptions come from? Have your experiences affirmed them or denied them?

 

[Rival]

I sometimes thank appliances like washing machines and kettles, either verbally or in my head, once they're done.

I don't even feel embarrassed at this anymore

 

[ChieftheCef]

In reading a section of a book this morning on animism, the author talked about how animism as an idea acts as an alternative paradigm to materialism. Instead of relating to the world around us as mere "things," animism instead teaches that these things are persons - individuals with agency and will. The author goes on to discuss some ideas on how we can relate to these other-than-human persons in our Pagan traditions.

Perhaps because the section prior was about foundational assumptions, I found myself thinking about the assumptions we make as Pagans when approaching the other-than-human persons in our traditions. The author wrote that we approach relations and interactions with other-than-human persons in much the same way we approach human persons. Concepts like reciprocity, politeness, and so on are considered relevant and important.

But are they? If these persons are not human, why might we assume that the way they manage relationships mirrors how humans manage them?

Consciouness I believe is primary to reality, just a phenomena of space-time, Father Nothing. The basics of consciousness are universal, from we don't like pain at the wrong time to we love happiness. That's what I believe anyway.

To give an example for clarity, it is common practice when harvesting trees and herbs to ask the Spirit of the Plant for permission. This is something I often do myself, but what assumptions am I making here? I am I asking permission for myself or do the Plant Spirits themselves have interest in this gesture?

I have an answer to that question, but I'd rather leave it an open one for now to instead prompt us to reflect and do think. When interacting with gods and spirits, why do you approach them in the ways that you do? What assumptions underlie the way you treat the gods and spirits? Where did these assumptions come from? Have your experiences affirmed them or denied them?

I won't say it won't work but I comfort plants when they have come to harm and play music for them and give them sugary drinks sometimes because I know they will feel it. Say "there, there" when taking a part of a plant. Do so as humanely as you can, plants are our brothers and sisters. Just my recommendation.

 

[Hildeburh]

Concepts like reciprocity, politeness, and so on are considered relevant and important.

I have an answer to that question, but I'd rather leave it an open one for now to instead prompt us to reflect and do think. When interacting with gods and spirits, why do you approach them in the ways that you do? What assumptions underlie the way you treat the gods and spirits? Where did these assumptions come from? Have your experiences affirmed them or denied them?

If you read mythology, old texts and archeology reciprocity and respect has always been how humans interacted with gods/esses, spirits and ancestors. You offer to build a reciprical relationship, you offer to show respect and/or you offer to avoid unintended consequences or avert harm.

Where plants are concerned I take my lead from the Old English herbal texts and charms, in which animism is apparent. I treat my garden, plants and herbs with respect, do not take more than I need and harvest at certain times of the day. I also offer to my local wights, in this way I hope to avert harm to them and to me.

 

[ChieftheCef]

If you read mythology, old texts and archeology reciprocity and respect has always been how humans interacted with gods/esses, spirits and ancestors. You offer to build a reciprical relationship, you offer to show respect and/or you offer to avoid unintended consequences or avert harm.

Where plants are concerned I take my lead from the Old English herbal texts and charms, in which animism is apparent. I treat my garden, plants and herbs with respect, do not take more than I need and harvest at certain times of the day. I also offer to my local wights, in this way I hope to avert harm to them and to me.

Be the druidist druid like me and talk kindly to them, let them know with inflexion they are alright when you harvest them, even give them occasional gifts of sugary drinks and perhaps play music for them. They are as alive as animals, and speak to each other through their roots. They can understand basic universal concepts like pain, play, pleasure, inflexion and others! This is all according to science. The Cosmos is alive, Gaia will hear you and be brought happiness for all that you do for plants! Science doesn't say that can't happen, if you get my drift.

 

[ChieftheCef]

In reading a section of a book this morning on animism, the author talked about how animism as an idea acts as an alternative paradigm to materialism. Instead of relating to the world around us as mere "things," animism instead teaches that these things are persons - individuals with agency and will. The author goes on to discuss some ideas on how we can relate to these other-than-human persons in our Pagan traditions.

Perhaps because the section prior was about foundational assumptions, I found myself thinking about the assumptions we make as Pagans when approaching the other-than-human persons in our traditions. The author wrote that we approach relations and interactions with other-than-human persons in much the same way we approach human persons. Concepts like reciprocity, politeness, and so on are considered relevant and important.

But are they? If these persons are not human, why might we assume that the way they manage relationships mirrors how humans manage them?

What you're really doing when you call out to a god or goddess or thing is being heard by the living reality and it wants your prayers to be answered yes.

To give an example for clarity, it is common practice when harvesting trees and herbs to ask the Spirit of the Plant for permission. This is something I often do myself, but what assumptions am I making here? I am I asking permission for myself or do the Plant Spirits themselves have interest in this gesture?

Plants can hear you, according to science. It's appropriate to tell them "don't worry, it'll be okay" when harvesting a bulb or two. Certainly less damage (ie harvesting) is preferable to the plant, but also know that the plant will grow back stronger.

I have an answer to that question, but I'd rather leave it an open one for now to instead prompt us to reflect and do think. When interacting with gods and spirits, why do you approach them in the ways that you do? What assumptions underlie the way you treat the gods and spirits? Where did these assumptions come from? Have your experiences affirmed them or denied them?

I'm interested, what's your answer?

I thought I'd give a little more info.

 

[Bear Wild]

In reading a section of a book this morning on animism, the author talked about how animism as an idea acts as an alternative paradigm to materialism. Instead of relating to the world around us as mere "things," animism instead teaches that these things are persons - individuals with agency and will. The author goes on to discuss some ideas on how we can relate to these other-than-human persons in our Pagan traditions.

Perhaps because the section prior was about foundational assumptions, I found myself thinking about the assumptions we make as Pagans when approaching the other-than-human persons in our traditions. The author wrote that we approach relations and interactions with other-than-human persons in much the same way we approach human persons. Concepts like reciprocity, politeness, and so on are considered relevant and important.

But are they? If these persons are not human, why might we assume that the way they manage relationships mirrors how humans manage them?

To give an example for clarity, it is common practice when harvesting trees and herbs to ask the Spirit of the Plant for permission. This is something I often do myself, but what assumptions am I making here? I am I asking permission for myself or do the Plant Spirits themselves have interest in this gesture?

I have an answer to that question, but I'd rather leave it an open one for now to instead prompt us to reflect and do think. When interacting with gods and spirits, why do you approach them in the ways that you do? What assumptions underlie the way you treat the gods and spirits? Where did these assumptions come from? Have your experiences affirmed them or denied them?

I have been away for a bit and catching up but this caught my attention. I recently hear an author about Frigg as presented in her book. She has developed an extremely close relationship with Frigg and her handmaidens as if it is conversational like. She identifies each in amazing detail as well as how they serve Frigg and how they work as a team. She also described how you can call on one or several of these goddesses at a time whenever you need and they will be willing to help. She then compared Frigg to the head of a corporation or cabinet directing her handmaidens to do what she needs and taking care of all matters. I found this as interesting just how close and personal she is with Frigg which is something I have not experienced. I experience the gods and goddesses, make offerings work on improving relations and have asked on help but never in such an intimate way and always felt I solve the problem the best I can and if they do help that is wonderful. So I was wondering how much of this very personal relationship is influenced the the way Jesus was personified in the Christian religion or is this just the way gods and goddesses are supposed to be seen and experienced?

 

[The Hammer]

So I was wondering how much of this very personal relationship is influenced the the way Jesus was personified in the Christian religion or is this just the way gods and goddesses are supposed to be seen and experienced?

I don't think there are any right or wrong ways to experience the Gods. Visualization is one method that is popular. Poetic inspiration comes to mind as well. And yup, even prayer too.

Some people do develop deep personal relationships with Gods. But I've only managed a deep personal connection with one historical God in particular. Typically it's animals, or plants.

 

[The Hammer]

In reading a section of a book this morning on animism, the author talked about how animism as an idea acts as an alternative paradigm to materialism. Instead of relating to the world around us as mere "things," animism instead teaches that these things are persons - individuals with agency and will. The author goes on to discuss some ideas on how we can relate to these other-than-human persons in our Pagan traditions.

Perhaps because the section prior was about foundational assumptions, I found myself thinking about the assumptions we make as Pagans when approaching the other-than-human persons in our traditions. The author wrote that we approach relations and interactions with other-than-human persons in much the same way we approach human persons. Concepts like reciprocity, politeness, and so on are considered relevant and important.

But are they? If these persons are not human, why might we assume that the way they manage relationships mirrors how humans manage them?

To give an example for clarity, it is common practice when harvesting trees and herbs to ask the Spirit of the Plant for permission. This is something I often do myself, but what assumptions am I making here? I am I asking permission for myself or do the Plant Spirits themselves have interest in this gesture?

I have an answer to that question, but I'd rather leave it an open one for now to instead prompt us to reflect and do think. When interacting with gods and spirits, why do you approach them in the ways that you do? What assumptions underlie the way you treat the gods and spirits? Where did these assumptions come from? Have your experiences affirmed them or denied them?

I guess I've always tried to interact with the Spirit and Natural world with the sort of respect I would expect from a close friend. We have an intimate relationship with the natural world, and therefore we need to always be aware of what we are doing. Even if the spirit of the tree doesn't agree with your request for permission, then at least attempt at being polite was made, in the ways we know how. I can't speak tree, but I can feel tree. And being treated with respect doesn't really need words,.it's a feeling imo.

 

[Bear Wild]

I don't think there are any right or wrong ways to experience the Gods. Visualization is one method that is popular. Poetic inspiration comes to mind as well. And yup, even prayer too.

Some people do develop deep personal relationships with Gods. But I've only managed a deep personal connection with one historical God in particular. Typically it's animals, or plants.

First thank you for previous interactions. Between you and JustGeorge inspired me to consider druidism and I did a year of obod then found the New Order of Druids which I am now in my second year. I agree with you and there is not right way and was just asking about how other people connect. My connection with my local environment is very close and personal. I have been protecting what is left our local greenbelt after Ice and heat destroyed almost half of the remaining trees. I feel very integrated with the local spirits here. Unfortunately I have not yet been able to connect so personally with a god or goddess to know such an amazing detailed account on how they actually live and interact with each. Hopefully that will come more in time.

 

[Tamino]

Perhaps because the section prior was about foundational assumptions, I found myself thinking about the assumptions we make as Pagans when approaching the other-than-human persons in our traditions. The author wrote that we approach relations and interactions with other-than-human persons in much the same way we approach human persons. Concepts like reciprocity, politeness, and so on are considered relevant and important.

But are they? If these persons are not human, why might we assume that the way they manage relationships mirrors how humans manage them?

I think I see it like languages.
Our human way of interacting and defining personhood is the "human language" (so, in this metaphor: not just our words but our entire way of thinking and concepts and actions).

If your language is the only language you know, and you want to communicate with plants or the lake or whatever... well... you just speak slowly, and repeat, and keep it simple, and hope that the other side is smart enough to get it. Just imagine you are in a foreign country, and you're lost and it's pretty awkward. You know that your words are basically useless, but you would still speak politely and hope that at least your intention is getting through, even if they don't understand the words.
I think a lot of our rituals are like that...trying to pare down our human "language" to the basic points, speaking slowly and carefully and trying to broadcast our intention clearly. So the spirit of the lake might not understand our words or ritual actions readily... but if we come back every year and carefully repeat the same thing, the spirit can observe us and will hopefully catch on.

Of course, ideally, you will want to study the foreign language, so you immerse yourself in science or spend a lot of time observing, to try and find out how plants might communicate, and what they are able to sense, and what helps them. Then you can use better rituals than all that human talk.

Now, the big deities are easy... I assume that they are multilingual, so I don't have to speak a foreign language. I might still try a few words, to show my appreciation, but in general I know that they understand me.
Same with some other beings... fae, house sprits, ancestors obviously - they know "human". If we conceptualize them as human-like people and interact accordingly: they get it. But never forget that they're the smart ones, and it's not their native language. I can visualize a Natjery in the form of a human or an animal, and treat them like a human person, and it works... But never forget that this is not their only "language", not their only mode of being - they're just doing it for my convenience, or because they want something from me.

 

[Bear Wild]

I think I see it like languages.
Our human way of interacting and defining personhood is the "human language" (so, in this metaphor: not just our words but our entire way of thinking and concepts and actions).

If your language is the only language you know, and you want to communicate with plants or the lake or whatever... well... you just speak slowly, and repeat, and keep it simple, and hope that the other side is smart enough to get it. Just imagine you are in a foreign country, and you're lost and it's pretty awkward. You know that your words are basically useless, but you would still speak politely and hope that at least your intention is getting through, even if they don't understand the words.
I think a lot of our rituals are like that...trying to pare down our human "language" to the basic points, speaking slowly and carefully and trying to broadcast our intention clearly. So the spirit of the lake might not understand our words or ritual actions readily... but if we come back every year and carefully repeat the same thing, the spirit can observe us and will hopefully catch on.

Of course, ideally, you will want to study the foreign language, so you immerse yourself in science or spend a lot of time observing, to try and find out how plants might communicate, and what they are able to sense, and what helps them. Then you can use better rituals than all that human talk.

Now, the big deities are easy... I assume that they are multilingual, so I don't have to speak a foreign language. I might still try a few words, to show my appreciation, but in general I know that they understand me.
Same with some other beings... fae, house sprits, ancestors obviously - they know "human". If we conceptualize them as human-like people and interact accordingly: they get it. But never forget that they're the smart ones, and it's not their native language. I can visualize a Natjery in the form of a human or an animal, and treat them like a human person, and it works... But never forget that this is not their only "language", not their only mode of being - they're just doing it for my convenience, or because they want something from me.

I would say there are many other ways of communicating than through human language. We communicate much more than what are words say when we do it in person. We use the vocal sounds in words that communicate more than the words themselves ore even an opposite meaning, we communicate though our bodies including eyes, touch, body position. Music and song are equally important. Plants feel vibrations and animals feel and hear them. Having presence is another aspect important in way of communication. I have no idea if any of the deities speak or understand modern English but I do not think it matters for we communicate in offering, respect, kindness, expressive emotions, and so many other ways. I would like to believe that the druids of the past did not want to write what they knew down because they knew that written words alone would never be enough.

 

[The Hammer]

I do not think it matters for we communicate in offering, respect, kindness, expressive emotions, and so many other ways. I would like to believe that the druids of the past did not want to write what they knew down because they knew that written words alone would never be enough.

Bingo!

 

[Tamino]

. I have no idea if any of the deities speak or understand modern English but I do not think it matters for we communicate in offering, respect, kindness, expressive emotions, and so many other ways. I

Yeah, but respect, kindness and emotion are still human concepts. Can we be certain that other beings understand them?
That's what I meant by language...

I think we need to keep the possibility in mind, that other types of beings are so different from us that they don't necessarily frame concepts in the same way.

 

[Bear Wild]

Yeah, but respect, kindness and emotion are still human concepts. Can we be certain that other beings understand them?
That's what I meant by language...

I think we need to keep the possibility in mind, that other types of beings are so different from us that they don't necessarily frame concepts in the same way.

But are respect, kindness and emotion really human concepts? I have seen animal rescue other who are not even the same species. I have seen my own feral cats that adopted me show a range of emotions. I have seen a raccoon and opossum travel together at my home each watching out for the other. I have seen animal share food when they did not need to. The other beings are definitely no human but the share this wonderous world and otherworld with us. I lost all of my anthropocentric view of this world and see a more wonderous and numinous world now. I now see myself as no more important or less important. The numinous other beings require us to accept us as a part of much greater world. We may act as custodians or keepers of this world as a role but to never see us as greater than and always than the gifts we are given that sustain us physically and spiritually. Thus the offering we give to them should reflect this.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

What an interesting set of questions. I'll hafta think on it before I give you a proper answer.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

When I'm doing rituals for the Gods, I try to approach them with reverence, praise, submissiveness, and humbleness. I try not to ask them for much of anything, unless it's super important and I've exhausted other means.

Whether this is instinctive in how humanity approaches divinity, a holdover from being Christian, or emulating behavior from Pagan mythology, I don't know? Never thought of it till you asked. To me it seems proper.

For more casual interactions I'll offer a quick word of praise and thanks, whether it be because the wind cooled me off, nature looked especially beautiful, or I recieved a flash of advice I hadn't expected.

I don't interact with spirits on purpose too often. Sometimes I'll see them there for a brief moment, occasionally I'll try to communicate despite that normally I can't see with my inner eye worth a darn.

I remember one particular moment when I was helping my boyfriend move. I was sick, nauseous, and miserable, when I felt this strong beckoning feeling. I followed the pull to a bush with flowers that grew wild near his house, and as soon as the scent hit me I didn't feel nauseous anymore. I was grateful and poured the rest of my water bottle onto the plant. I don't know why the spirit of the flowerbush would care about some sick, sad, cranky girl it would never see again, or even what kind of plant it was? But I had been helped, and I wanted to do something nice in return.

It is true that we can't expect certain spirits to understand what it's like to be us, and vice versa. In the same way that we can't experience what it's like to use whale sonar, or what photosynthesis feels like.

Animals have asked for assistance from other animals when it's not beneficial to both of them. They have even been shown to ask assistance from us, the cause of so many of the planet's problems.

I don't even know if any of this is answering your questions?

But trying to show appreciation to the Gods, nature, and nature spirits can't be a bad thing.