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Intellectuals and Socialism

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm more positive towards Cuban communism, definitely not into authoritarianism or Nationalistism

I don't know much about Cuban Communism, but sadly I don't think it departed from the Stalinist model that much. Cuban Communism doesn't have a great history on LGBT rights and also used the practice of putting dissidents into mental hospitals for example.

A Nazi-Communist-Wannabe Jew?

Sounds legit.

The world is crazy enough to handle it. ;)
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Well there is some support for the idea that right wing capitalists are mentally ill!!
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One observation I made when I went back to school, and had to start at community college to establish myself (I did poorly in high school and dropped out of college the first time), and community college most of my peers were working class and were definitely not the Starbucks and trendy restaurant hipsters that my peers at uni were. They came from at least a comfortable amount of money, their parents paved the way for them and gave them a boost in their economic position, and they seemed to not understand what going without actually entails. and never stopped to think others may not have the expendable income they do. One example I'll never forget, it was in an honors colloquium class I was in, and the teacher asked if we wanted to eat out for our last class meeting. I was insisting on somewhere on the cheaper side, but everybody else opted for one of the more pricey places in town. What made it memorable for me was I was doing a paper on the positive morality in South Park in that class, and that discussion left me feeling like the impoverished and muffled Kenny - the voiceless working poor who get trampled on by those with the privilege of money.

My parents were both pretty poor for a long time and spent most of their lives saving. My dad was briefly homeless for a few days, but it was long enough to have an impact. They were both teachers and live very well, but they despise debt. I think I was the first person in my family to actually go to University (even if it was just for a year) and certainly have taken a lot for granted. The local area I live in is very poor though when you scrape behind the pleasant looking shop fronts. I don't think you could call me working class by any means, but its not likely I'm going to be safely middle class either.

Well there is some support for the idea that right wing capitalists are mentally ill!!

If we could blame it on that, it would be much easier. :D But more of the right wing capitalists are sane and scarier for it.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It depends. At its core, communism is a state/public controlled economy. From there it tends to vary much, such as Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Fidel Castro, and Che. Lenin and Castro lead Revolutions against oppressive regimes, and Stalin went oppressive in a way that resembled what Castro fought against. Che was perhaps the most fanatic, being nearly on par with a Muslim extremist.
As far as I know, communes have only ever worked on a small scale, and even then most of them broke up within ten or 15 years. And the reason is obvious: communism ceases to be communism when the community is no longer making the decisions, collectively. And that becomes very difficult as the community gets larger than several dozen people. After that point, they begin to become either dictatorships, or some form of representational democratic socialism.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
As far as I know, communes have only ever worked on a small scale, and even then most of them broke up within ten or 15 years. And the reason is obvious: communism ceases to be communism when the community is no longer making the decisions, collectively. And that becomes very difficult as the community gets larger than several dozen people. After that point, they begin to become either dictatorships, or some form of representational democratic socialism.
You do realise that dictatorships are a legit form of Communism right? It's right there in the name 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. It's what's supposed to happen.
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Every tin pot dictator in history that has tried to peddle his fascist totalitarian dictatorship to the rest of the world as "communist socialism".
You are talking out of your arse, frankly.
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Every tin pot dictator in history that has tried to peddle his fascist totalitarian dictatorship to the rest of the world as "communist socialism".

You do grasp that Communism is an economic system and there is nothing inherently democratic or humane about it?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You do realise that dictatorships are a legit form of Communism right? It's right there in the name 'dictatorship of the proletariat'. It's what's supposed to happen.
Sounds to me like you've been drinking from the 'commie kool-aid' bowl.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Sounds to me like you've been drinking from the 'commie kool-aid' bowl.
It sounds as though you have a very superficial understanding of Communism. Marx viewed all forms of government as dictatorships.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
You do grasp that Communism is an economic system and there is nothing inherently democratic or humane about it?
How does the "community own and control the means of production" (i.e., "communism") when the members of that community have no say regarding what it owns and no control over how it's managed?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How does the "community own and control the means of production" (i.e., "communism") when the members of that community have no say regarding what it owns and no control over how it's managed?

Because it can be owned by the community in name, but controlled by a handful of people on behalf of the community and serving their interests.

Sounds to me like you've been drinking from the 'commie kool-aid' bowl.

The phrase "drinking the kool aid" comes from the mass sucicide of Jonestown which was a Communist inspired Cult known as the People's Temple.

So, it was always Commie kool aid.

leninade_grande.JPG
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I wanted to ask whether you agree that intellectuals tend to prefer the designing of social institutions to serve human interests (based on principles of social justice for example)? Would you agree with Hayek that this is a prejudice of sorts? Or is there a way to prove that designed institutions are superior to those market institutions which developed (he claims) "spontaneously"?

Any thoughts Comrades? :)

He talks about economics mostly in the abstract, as if it's some kind of parlor game, without taking into consideration any principles of humanism or human rights. He called it a "game of chance," while I've heard other pro-capitalist ideologues suggest it's more like survival of the fittest where "only the strong shall survive." This seems to support the view that market economies are "just" and falls within the parameters of natural law.

I think this pretty much sums up the main argument in favor of capitalism, which relates to their arguments against socialism, as they think socialism violates "human nature."

One of the main problems with this view is that "natural law" is a sword that cuts both ways. Life is not a "parlor game." People at a certain aristocratic level in society tend to think in those terms and believe that everyone must follow and will follow a certain set of "rules" in this "game" that they've imagined for themselves. But they're not the ones on the assembly lines getting their hands dirty. They're not the ones in the trenches fighting wars. They're still safe and sound in their ivory towers, insulated and free to philosophize about abstractions - and pat each other on the back over how great their "system" is.

To be sure, nationalism also uses the "natural law" argument to justify itself. As a 19th century German nationalist philosopher once put it, "the weak and cowardly perish, and perish justly." That's one of the pitfalls of "natural law" and one of the reasons more enlightened nations have tried to move away from that kind of thinking.

I don't think we have to embrace "natural law" just because it's there. So what if one system can say that it's more "spontaneous" or "natural" than the other (thus implying that one is superior)? The real question is: Do we, as humans, really want to live this way?

Where I live in the American Southwest, there's a lot of people who embrace this kind of capitalist/libertarian viewpoint peppered with certain ideals that shaped the Old West. Culturally, the folklore of the Western/Frontier genre has probably shaped Americans' views of themselves, as well as the outside world and life itself. During the early days of the Cold War, it was also the early days of TV - and Westerns dominated. I sometimes watch those old shows on reruns. It's not just gunfights and cowboys, but there was a certain philosophy that has permeated other genres and created a lot of the value systems and perceptions that ostensibly dominate American thought and dominate the political culture.

What this means is that, when capitalists argue for what they consider to be "the best system," they're not really arguing for the nuts and bolts of a "market economy" as it exists presently. They're arguing for a world where Jedi Knights and Walker Texas Ranger actually exist. They're arguing for an abstract fantasy - a parlor game. They believe in contracts and lawyers and "rules," although as Col. Saito put it in The Bridge On The River Kwai, "Do not speak to me of rules. This is war! This is not a game of cricket!"

But on that note, all these contracts and laws and rules that capitalists adhere to (and the wealthy benefit from) would contradict Hayek's argument that the system is "spontaneous." Humans had to design all those rules and the institutions set up to enforce them.

So, the institutions have already been designed; the question is whether humans can think of a better way to make them operate.

The other side of the question is what is the actual goal in whatever "system" we choose to set up? In simpler times (back in the Old West), the whole idea was to expand and build, expand and build - move west, set up towns, farms, railroads. It didn't matter who we rolled over to get to that point - that was the main goal. And in large part, it mainly worked to achieve the goal of expanding our size, resource base - and developing enough land to support a large population to build industries required to become a major superpower.

Other powers in Europe embarked on a similar campaign of acquiring land and resources around the world to build up their empires. They also tried to take land from each other, which also had consequences. Whatever political/economic systems they embraced depended on whatever national agenda or goals they might have had. Whether they were out for conquest or whether they were trying to protect their lands from would-be conquerors, their system was geared more towards that particular goal than anything else. It also depended a great deal on patriotism and nationalism - the idea that we are the "good guys" fighting the "bad guys."

The trouble is that we went too far. The machines and weapons of war became so frightening and monstrous that we didn't want to use them - except when absolutely necessary. In the nuclear world, geopolitics has become a big "Mexican standoff" where numerous powers have nuclear weapons - or the ability to manufacture them in a relatively short period of time. We also have a world where "class" means a different thing on a global scale than it might mean within a particular nation.

Back in Russia in 1917, most of the world was heavily nationalist, so the idea of all the workers of the world uniting in a common cause seemed impossible. But now that the capitalists have "gone global" and speak of a "global village" and free trade and global markets, perhaps a more globalized form of socialism might also be something with some appeal. In terms of class and the differences between rich and poor - on a global scale, the differences are quite stark.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
He talks about economics mostly in the abstract, as if it's some kind of parlor game, without taking into consideration any principles of humanism or human rights. He called it a "game of chance," while I've heard other pro-capitalist ideologues suggest it's more like survival of the fittest where "only the strong shall survive." This seems to support the view that market economies are "just" and falls within the parameters of natural law.

I think this pretty much sums up the main argument in favor of capitalism, which relates to their arguments against socialism, as they think socialism violates "human nature."

One of the main problems with this view is that "natural law" is a sword that cuts both ways. Life is not a "parlor game." People at a certain aristocratic level in society tend to think in those terms and believe that everyone must follow and will follow a certain set of "rules" in this "game" that they've imagined for themselves. But they're not the ones on the assembly lines getting their hands dirty. They're not the ones in the trenches fighting wars. They're still safe and sound in their ivory towers, insulated and free to philosophize about abstractions - and pat each other on the back over how great their "system" is.

To be sure, nationalism also uses the "natural law" argument to justify itself. As a 19th century German nationalist philosopher once put it, "the weak and cowardly perish, and perish justly." That's one of the pitfalls of "natural law" and one of the reasons more enlightened nations have tried to move away from that kind of thinking.

I don't think we have to embrace "natural law" just because it's there. So what if one system can say that it's more "spontaneous" or "natural" than the other (thus implying that one is superior)? The real question is: Do we, as humans, really want to live this way?

Where I live in the American Southwest, there's a lot of people who embrace this kind of capitalist/libertarian viewpoint peppered with certain ideals that shaped the Old West. Culturally, the folklore of the Western/Frontier genre has probably shaped Americans' views of themselves, as well as the outside world and life itself. During the early days of the Cold War, it was also the early days of TV - and Westerns dominated. I sometimes watch those old shows on reruns. It's not just gunfights and cowboys, but there was a certain philosophy that has permeated other genres and created a lot of the value systems and perceptions that ostensibly dominate American thought and dominate the political culture.

What this means is that, when capitalists argue for what they consider to be "the best system," they're not really arguing for the nuts and bolts of a "market economy" as it exists presently. They're arguing for a world where Jedi Knights and Walker Texas Ranger actually exist. They're arguing for an abstract fantasy - a parlor game. They believe in contracts and lawyers and "rules," although as Col. Saito put it in The Bridge On The River Kwai, "Do not speak to me of rules. This is war! This is not a game of cricket!"

But on that note, all these contracts and laws and rules that capitalists adhere to (and the wealthy benefit from) would contradict Hayek's argument that the system is "spontaneous." Humans had to design all those rules and the institutions set up to enforce them.

So, the institutions have already been designed; the question is whether humans can think of a better way to make them operate.

The other side of the question is what is the actual goal in whatever "system" we choose to set up? In simpler times (back in the Old West), the whole idea was to expand and build, expand and build - move west, set up towns, farms, railroads. It didn't matter who we rolled over to get to that point - that was the main goal. And in large part, it mainly worked to achieve the goal of expanding our size, resource base - and developing enough land to support a large population to build industries required to become a major superpower.

Other powers in Europe embarked on a similar campaign of acquiring land and resources around the world to build up their empires. They also tried to take land from each other, which also had consequences. Whatever political/economic systems they embraced depended on whatever national agenda or goals they might have had. Whether they were out for conquest or whether they were trying to protect their lands from would-be conquerors, their system was geared more towards that particular goal than anything else. It also depended a great deal on patriotism and nationalism - the idea that we are the "good guys" fighting the "bad guys."

The trouble is that we went too far. The machines and weapons of war became so frightening and monstrous that we didn't want to use them - except when absolutely necessary. In the nuclear world, geopolitics has become a big "Mexican standoff" where numerous powers have nuclear weapons - or the ability to manufacture them in a relatively short period of time. We also have a world where "class" means a different thing on a global scale than it might mean within a particular nation.

Back in Russia in 1917, most of the world was heavily nationalist, so the idea of all the workers of the world uniting in a common cause seemed impossible. But now that the capitalists have "gone global" and speak of a "global village" and free trade and global markets, perhaps a more globalized form of socialism might also be something with some appeal. In terms of class and the differences between rich and poor - on a global scale, the differences are quite stark.

Beautifully put and very through. I wish I could have said it that way. :D
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sorry Rival, but I don't think Marx means that the way you think it does.

Marx determined that all states were class dictatorships. A dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, or a dictatorship of the Proletariat at modern times. He believed a dictatorship of the individual to be impossible.

I think Lenin phrased it dialectically as there is no such thing as a "pure" democracy or dictatorship above class. Democracy or Dictatorship were instrumental as methods of the ruling class. So a Bourgeois Democracy is "democratic" towards the bourgeoisie as the ruling class, but remains a capitalist dictatorship over the workers/proletariat. The reverse would apply to socialism; the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is democratic within the proletariat as the ruling class, but dictatorial towards deposed exploiting classes such as Capitalists and Landlords.

The specific organisation of the dictatorship/democracy in socialism depends on a number of theoretical disputes over the role of a Communist Party as the vanguard of the proletariat or whether the proletariat is self-governing on the basis of worker's council or soviets, etc.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Because it can be owned by the community in name, but controlled by a handful of people on behalf of the community and serving their interests.
"Serving their interests?" How does this occur when when people are denied their own autonomy, and denied any control over the mechanisms and circumstances that effect their lives? Please list the names of a few of these imaginary "benevolent dictators", from history. Because I can't thing of a single one. Lots of them called themselves benevolent dictators, but no sane human would describe their reign as "benevolent".
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
"Serving their interests?" How does this occur when when people are denied their own autonomy, and denied any control over the mechanisms and circumstances that effect their lives? Please list the names of a few of these imaginary "benevolent dictators", from history. Because I can't thing of a single one. Lots of them called themselves benevolent dictators, but no sane human would describe their reign as "benevolent".
Do you udnerstand the difference between a historical discussion and a theoretical one?
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"Serving their interests?" How does this occur when when people are denied their own autonomy, and denied any control over the mechanisms and circumstances that effect their lives? Please list the names of a few of these imaginary "benevolent dictators", from history. Because I can't thing of a single one. Lots of them called themselves benevolent dictators, but no sane human would describe their reign as "benevolent".

The point is not that the "benevolent dictators" serve all the people simultaneously, but serve certain social groups advantageously. One of the few instances where it could be applicable is "Enlightened Absolutism" where European Monarchies encouraged commerce, religious toleration and patronage of the arts. We owe much of the output of European classical music to this period such as the works of Mozart. Napoleon, whilst a major military figure, also consolidated the legal gains of the French Revolution and spread them throughout western Europe. In Spain for example, the 1830 revolution used the 1812 constitution imposed by the French because it was more liberal than the restored Bourbon Monarchy.

Similarly, the Renaissance produced lasting cultural contributions to the benefit of mankind. The Italian Renaissance produced Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo Galileo and Michalangeo. The English Renaissance reached its height under Elizabeth the First with William Shakespeare literary output. I believe this happened largely under various forms of monarchy. such as the Medici in the city of Florence

However, this necessarily has to be viewed in a political context and clearly the evils of dictatorship and absolute monarchy remain a factor and there significance depend on the moral weight you give them.
 
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