infant baptism

[robocop (actually)]

If I understand this correctly, are you suggesting children should be taken to other churches as well as the Mormon church so the children can know that Mormonism is true and others are false?

Please don't call it the Mormon Church. Please call it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in introduction and then after that the Church or the LDS Church. We need to emphasize who's Church we believe we are and it used to be that we didn't want to offend people who called us Mormon but we would like to get our title straight now that we are more respected.

I think books about other religions is good enough, and if they want to check out other Churches I don't know... I'm not a parent and I don't know what it feels like to be a parent enough to answer that. Maybe another Latter-day Saint here can answer the question of whether to take children to other Churches.

 

[EverChanging]

Well, I agree and disagree. I agree that they should at the very least know that they can do it later or not at all and my parents taught me that. I agree that God gave us brains to use them rigorously.

However, I disagree on one thing. I think the doctrine of Christ is something important to instill in a child at a young age to get them on the right track.

Then why not baptize them? By indoctrinating a child before they have developed a strong critical faculty you're already choosing what they believe anyway. They don't yet have the ability to resist your beliefs. I wouldn't go that far in indoctrination myself. I support a healthy skepticism and the validity of non-literal and poetic interpretations of religious doctrine. In a sense, though I would support infant baptism, you are removing choice more than I would by heavily ingraining doctrine into a child who has no faculty to resist.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I just think the gospel of Jesus Christ is understandable at 8 even if they don't have a strong critical faculty. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not understood like Calculus but like doing something that makes you happy at the time. All the concepts are explained for a person to decide they are committed to trusting, relying on and following Jesus Christ. They can leave the Church and there are further temple ordinances for an adult.

No they can't use critical thinking to pick between say, the LDS Church an Buddhism or the LDS Church and Baptists for instance. I agree they cannot decide this at the age of 8. They don't know any better. But I think being a member at the young age of 8 is not a sin or a terrible tragedy of failed logic... it doesn't bother me. To me an 8 year old born in the Church joining it is similar to an 8 year old born Buddhist and joining it. Both things are OK. And if the LDS Church is true, it is better for that 8 year old who joins it, right?

But as for which Church or religion is really true, we already leave that up to adults to decide. We are the adults. We have conversations about who is right. And members can go on missions when they are 18 too.

 

[Watchmen]

Please don't call it the Mormon Church. Please call it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in introduction and then after that the Church or the LDS Church. We need to emphasize who's Church we believe we are and it used to be that we didn't want to offend people who called us Mormon but we would like to get our title straight now that we are more respected.

I think books about other religions is good enough, and if they want to check out other Churches I don't know... I'm not a parent and I don't know what it feels like to be a parent enough to answer that. Maybe another Latter-day Saint here can answer the question of whether to take children to other Churches.

So what were you implying then by the post I quoted? Just curious.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So what were you implying then by the post I quoted? Just curious.

Nothing. The Book of Mormon is fundamental to our religion and I just thought you thought that was our name. We would like our Church to be named of Jesus Christ.

Also example is stronger than preaching and sustained effort stronger than being wishy-washy. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying that.

 

[EverChanging]

I just think the gospel of Jesus Christ is understandable at 8 even if they don't have a strong critical faculty. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not understood like Calculus but like doing something that makes you happy at the time. All the concepts are explained for a person to decide they are committed to trusting, relying on and following Jesus Christ. They can leave the Church and there are further temple ordinances for an adult.

No they can't use critical thinking to pick between say, the LDS Church an Buddhism or the LDS Church and Baptists for instance. I agree they cannot decide this at the age of 8. They don't know any better. But I think being a member at the young age of 8 is not a sin or a terrible tragedy of failed logic... it doesn't bother me. To me an 8 year old born in the Church joining it is similar to an 8 year old born Buddhist and joining it. Both things are OK. And if the LDS Church is true, it is better for that 8 year old who joins it, right?

But as for which Church or religion is really true, we already leave that up to adults to decide. We are the adults. We have conversations about who is right. And members can go on missions when they are 18 too.

I'm not following why it's okay to make choices about a child's beliefs by indoctrinating them before they have the ability to critically reject what they're being taught, but infant baptism is not okay.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I'm not following why it's okay to make choices about a child's beliefs by indoctrinating them before they have the ability to critically reject what they're being taught, but infant baptism is not okay.

Why can't the child understand it?

It is a sin for the parents if they do not lead or if they mislead in any way particularly about Jesus Christ and also about the doctrine of the Church. They should explain, allow dissension, make sure the child knows he will still be loved and cared for if he rejects, and the child needs to understand. Calculus and the gospel of Jesus Christ are not the same thing. An eight-year old can understand all the inner-workings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sure they probably just "feel like getting baptized", but why is that worse than any other religions when they have a Bishop certify that they are worthy and understand their baptism, and why isn't it better than birth where the child doesn't participate at all?

At eight years old the children are accountable before God. That's something Latter-day Saints believe. LDS parents believe that God created it that way. If it is right or wrong, well, that has to do with the LDS Church being right or wrong.

 

[Watchmen]

Nothing. The Book of Mormon is fundamental to our religion and I just thought you thought that was our name. We would like our Church to be named of Jesus Christ.

Also example is stronger than preaching and sustained effort stronger than being wishy-washy. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying that.

No. I’m asking about what you meant by post #16.

 

[robocop (actually)]

No. I’m asking about what you meant by post #16.

I meant I really did want children to learn about different religions, Christian and not. And the reason this is important to me is that I firmly believe you can only be certain of your ideas inasmuch as you are certain the ideas that oppose them are wrong. I really mean that. If I were a parent, my religion says it is a sin of me if I do not explain the doctrine of my Church properly, and I believe I would have to explain other ideas too.

 

[Watchmen]

I meant I really did want children to learn about different religions, Christian and not. And the reason this is important to me is that I firmly believe you can only be certain of your ideas inasmuch as you are certain the ideas that oppose them are wrong. I really mean that. If I were a parent, my religion says it is a sin of me if I do not explain the doctrine of my Church properly, and I believe I would have to explain other ideas too.

So you think one way Mormons confirm the truth of their church is by listening to false teachings of other churches?

 

[robocop (actually)]

At any rate, I put this in the LDS DIR. I originally just wanted to talk to Latter-day Saints about the two ideas, the one that came to me and the other my brother-in-law proposed. You are all welcome to post here but please remember that.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So you think one way Mormons confirm the truth of their church is by listening to false teachings of other churches?

I said that was one way I confirm the truth. Many Latter-day Saints do not spend much time with other churches. I was a Raelian for 8-years and we learned about many religions, so I am used to it.

Again, at any rate, I put this in the LDS DIR. I originally just wanted to talk to Latter-day Saints about the two ideas, the one that came to me and the other my brother-in-law proposed. You are all welcome to post here but please remember that.

There are two churches only, the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the devil. They are not embodied in particular denominations or organizations.

 

[Watchmen]

I said that was one way I confirm the truth. Many Latter-day Saints do not spend much time with other churches. I was a Raelian for 8-years and we learned about many religions, so I am used to it.

Again, at any rate, I put this in the LDS DIR. I originally just wanted to talk to Latter-day Saints about the two ideas, the one that came to me and the other my brother-in-law proposed. You are all welcome to post here but please remember that.

There are two churches only, the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the devil. They are not embodied in particular denominations.

I am counted in the rolls of the Church. That makes me LDS and I can post here.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I am counted in the rolls of the Church. That makes me LDS and I can post here.

OK that's cool. You are all welcome to post. I am just a newly baptized Latter-day Saint. The missionaries said I could be a part-time missionary and I'm loving it sharing ideas on RF.

I said that was one way I confirm the truth. Many Latter-day Saints do not spend much time with other churches. I was a Raelian for 8-years and we learned about many religions, so I am used to it.

There are two churches only, the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the devil. They are not embodied in particular denominations.

 

[Watchmen]

OK that's cool. You are all welcome to post. I am just a newly baptized Latter-day Saint. The missionaries said I could be a part-time missionary and I'm loving it sharing ideas on RF.

I said that was one way I confirm the truth. Many Latter-day Saints do not spend much time with other churches. I was a Raelian for 8-years and we learned about many religions, so I am used to it.

There are two churches only, the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the devil. They are not embodied in particular denominations.

So anything outside the LDS Church is the church of the devil?

 

[robocop (actually)]

So anything outside the LDS Church is the church of the devil?

Nope. I just said they are not embodied in particular denominations. There is no specific Church, movement or organization that is the church of the lamb or the church of the devil. However, both of the two churches entice people.

 

[robocop (actually)]

OK good night and thank you everybody. Will talk later. I am trying hard.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I guess I can't have it both ways... either I teach my children about other churches and religions or don't. Well, I'm going to go back to what I said earlier on this thread and say I would teach them they'll want to go to the LDS Temple at 10, about Judaism at 12, traditional Christianity at 14, Islam at 16, and Eastern religions I know of. Didn't mean to contradict myself. Just like Jesus gives me the dignity of choosing Him or someone else, I would want to give my children the dignity of choosing even if they were already baptized.

OK good night for real this time.

 

[Watchmen]

I guess I can't have it both ways... either I teach my children about other churches and religions or don't. Well, I'm going to go back to what I said earlier on this thread and say I would teach them they'll want to go to the LDS Temple at 10, about Judaism at 12, traditional Christianity at 14, Islam at 16, and Eastern religions I know of. Didn't mean to contradict myself. Just like Jesus gives me the dignity of choosing Him or someone else, I would want to give my children the dignity of choosing even if they were already baptized.

OK good night for real this time.

Pretty sure your Bishop will advise against this.

 

[Katzpur]

The thief on the cross never baptized for one.

Just wondering how you know this? I volunteer once a week in a county jail and I can assure you there are a great many inmates there -- one that I know of is awaiting a court date on murder charges -- who were baptized.