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Featured Infallibility

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vinayaka, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Infallibility

    One may like to read my post #129 which is also very relevant here.

    Regards
     
  2. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing is infallible especially any human who has ever lived, and that includes Jesus.
     
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  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Post #129 only reflects your bias and religious agenda.
     
  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    And Bahaullah, Shoghi Effendi and UHJ also. Right, please?

    Regards
     
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  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Right in terms of what? In terms of the spiritual principles and laws for the New Age yes. In terms of their commentary concerning science and technology, the must be understood and interpreted in terms of the spiritual principle of the harmony of science and religion, as spiritual attributes of our existence. The knowledge of the Bah'i Faith acknowledges a dynamic evolving process in terms of the nature of our physical existence.

    Science and Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe

    Religion,” according to the Bahá’í writings, “is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore, it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive.”1Science is the first emanation from God toward man. All created things embody the potentiality of material perfection, but the power of intellectual investigation and scientific acquisition is a higher virtue specialized to man alone. Other beings and organisms are deprived of this potentiality and attainment.2

    If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism. All religions of the present day have fallen into superstitious practices, out of harmony alike with the true principles of the teaching they represent and with the scientific discoveries of the time.[10]

    Abdu'l-Baha
     
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Infallibility

    One may like to read my post #52 in another thread that is also very relevant here:

    Vinayaka said:↑
    Yes indeed. When you believe things such as copper will change to gold over time, and insist that that is science, yes, Fort Knox we have a problem.

    paarsurrey said:
    "When you believe things such as copper will change to gold over time, and insist that that is science, yes,"
    that points to the fallibility of Bahaullah. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #686 paarsurrey, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  7. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Although that was not the meaning intended, if we believe in God which you claim to, are not all things possible to God?
     
  8. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    As a liberal I say Baha’u’llah, Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad were all fallible humans to varying degrees.

    Speaking of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, did you know that he tried to cure a person with fever by butchering a rooster and tying it to the sick person’s head?1
    1 https://www.alislam.org/urdu/pdf/Seerat-ul-Mahdi-Vol-1.pdf quotation 511 pg 522
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Baha’u’llah did say that copper will change into gold over a 70 year period of time but He also said...

    “Consider the doubts which they who have joined partners with God have instilled into the hearts of the people of this land. “Is it ever possible,” they ask, “for copper to be transmuted into gold?” Say, Yes, by my Lord, it is possible. Its secret, however, lieth hidden in Our Knowledge. We will reveal it unto whom We will. Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth. That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 197-198
     
    #689 Trailblazer, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  10. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Actually He did, even gave the time period as 70years

    Did you even read your link? It says in the details that copper changes into substance with properties like gold, the title was just click bait
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Yes, He did say that...

    “It is evident that nothing short of this mystic transformation could cause such spirit and behaviour, so utterly unlike their previous habits and manners, to be made manifest in the world of being. For their agitation was turned into peace, their doubt into certitude, their timidity into courage. Such is the potency of the Divine Elixir, which, swift as the twinkling of an eye, transmuteth the souls of men!

    For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.

    Be that as it may, the real elixir will, in one instant, cause the substance of copper to attain the state of gold, and will traverse the seventy-year stages in a single moment. Could this gold be called copper? Could it be claimed that it hath not attained the state of gold, whilst the touch-stone is at hand to assay it and distinguish it from copper?

    Likewise, these souls, through the potency of the Divine Elixir, traverse, in the twinkling of an eye, the world of dust and advance into the realm of holiness; and with one step cover the earth of limitations and reach the domain of the Placeless. It behooveth thee to exert thine utmost to attain unto this Elixir which, in one fleeting breath, causeth the west of ignorance to reach the east of knowledge, illuminates the darkness of night with the resplendence of the morn, guideth the wanderer in the wilderness of doubt to the well-spring of the Divine Presence and Fount of certitude, and conferreth upon mortal souls the honour of acceptance into the Ridván of immortality. Now, could this gold be thought to be copper, these people could likewise be thought to be the same as before they were endowed with faith.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 156-158


    He also said…

    “That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 198
     
    #691 Trailblazer, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  12. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    'For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold.'

    (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 156)
     
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  13. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Two main points I would like to humbly mention.

    The first is that God can do anything He pleases so the God that created the universe and the elements can also change them as He pleases.

    Second, The Baha’i position on the Manifestations of God is that They are all infallible.
     
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  14. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    He is a Manifestation of God and speaks the truth. He’s infallible so although the context was to show that human nature can be transformed from satanic into angelic, these things are easy to God and to me God is All Powerful and All Knowing so there’s no question that spiritually and materially both transformations can be achieved. With God all things are possible if you truly believe in God.
     
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  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I had found that passage by doing a web search.
     
  16. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    The question is not can God do it. The question is does it naturally happen if left in it’s original mine in a molten state inside of (or for less than) 70 years.

    True belief in God has nothing to do with it. A group of scientists who don’t believe in God at all can test it because it is a falsifiable claim.
     
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    “That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 198

    That passage was not referring to a spiritual transformation... Just because there are things man does not know how to do does not mean that they cannot be done. The knowledge of many things is with God alone.
     
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  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    And they have tested it and proven it is a false claim?
     
  19. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Not that I know of, but God willing somebody with the money to do so will document the testing of Baha’u’llah’s copper hypothesis one day just to lay it to rest.
     
  20. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    As this thread is about infallibility I wish to clarify the Baha’i stance as well as the term Baha’i used other than in its proper context.

    We believe all the Manifestations of God whether it be Baha’u’llah, Muhammad, Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Christ or , Zoroaster are all infallible. This is our basic belief.

    Infallibility

    Regarding your Bahá'í friend who does not fully understand the infallibility of the Manifestation of God: You should influence that person to study the matter more deeply, and to realize that the whole theory of Divine Revelation rests on the infallibility of the Prophet, be He Christ, Muhammad, Bahá'u'lláh, or one of the others. If they are not infallible, then They are not Divine, and thus lose that essential link with God which, we believe, is the bond that educates men and causes all human progress."

    (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, January 11, 1942)

    The term ‘Baha’i’

    The term ‘Baha’i is the only authoritative and official word used to represent a member of the Baha’i Faith.

    There is no such thing as Baha’i liberals’. There is no such Baha’i. We are all just Baha’is. We are one united world community.

    A letter from the Universal House of Justice clarifies such terms do not represent the Baha’i Faith or a member of it.

    In this regard, the House of Justice has noted your understandable repugnance at an apparent temptation to use misleading and invidious labels like "traditionalists" and "liberals", which divide the Bahá'í community. To the extent that this divisive habit of mind may persist in the Bahá'í community, it is obviously a carry-over from non-Bahá'í society and a manifestation of an immature conception of life. If Bahá'ís were to persist in this mode of thinking, it would bring to naught even the most worthwhile intellectual endeavour, as has so conspicuously been the case with societies of the past.
    Dec 10, 1992 to an individual)
     
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