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Featured Infallibility

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vinayaka, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Reply

    You can post in every medium and in every part of the earth for eternity and it will not change the answer about the infallibility of Baha'u'llah.

    Please answer if you think the Quran contains infallible guidance.

    Regards Tony
     
  2. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Infallibility is hard to imagine. I dont see that anybody is perfect. And who's standard of perfection is truly perfect anyway?

    Morally ideal. Completely Virtuous in every way. Wisdom so true that everything they do produces love and life. Incapable of fallacy and fault. A mind so beautiful that it only uncovers knowledge, and wisdom and only creates highly useful things. Without error, and without mistake. Inerrant in judgment! Without bias nor partiality! Completely deserving. Easy to love!

    I can see someone being morally perfect, and full of virtue. I can't see anyone being perfect in judgment and perfect in wisdom. I can't see someone being logically foolproof. I can't see someone without mistakes. Imo Passions cloud the mind easily for human beings. Reality is full of unknowables.

    Isnt life more a journey, then a perfected work.

    The word perfect gives me a headache just thinking about it.

    I know that people can master their craft. But there is only so much time in a day, perfection has its limits.
     
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  3. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    If nothing else, this thread has proved that the mindset of believing in infallibility is absolutely immovable. Fortunately, it's fairly rare.
     
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  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I have submitted my reply in post #172 in another thread, I repeat it here, please.
    I quote from Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude of Bahaullah about Quran, please:

    "behold what the Book which embraceth all things hath revealed"
    "Consider how clearly and explicitly he hath been described in God’s incorruptible Book!"
    "Ponder the blessed verse, so that the meaning of the words: “There is neither a thing green nor sere but it is noted in the unerring Book " Qur’án 6:59
    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200
    Regards
     
  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Well done, thank you.

    Regards Tony
     
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  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Or unfortunatly. It is rare as it is a path where ones very life is offered for the good of all. If one can not have faith in infallible guidance, how is it one could choose this path as a sacrifice to all other people?

    "....Thy true lovers who were so enraptured by Thy sweet utterance that they hastened unto the Pinnacle of Glory, the site of the most glorious martyrdom..."

    I am reading the Dawn Breakers again, I had not read it since te 1980's and it was a book that gave me that assurance. It tells the stories of the early Martyrs, when they were killed for proclaiming a new message in the middle of Islam orthodoxy.

    The first two to suffer for the Bab's cause had their beards burnt off, a hole cut in their noses so a halter could be attached, then draged around the streets and then subject to hundreds of lashes. One was an old fellow and a witness saw him holding his hand over his mouth. He got over 900 lashes, yes 900 vigorous lashes.

    The witness asked later why he had his hand over his mouth and he replied;

    "The first 7 or so lashes were very painful, then after that I did not even know that they were being done on my own body. I had to hold my hand over my mouth to stop showing my joy and laughing..."

    That is the power of belief in infalibility, a path many strong souls have taken.

    I will add, It is not the path of a terrorist thinking they are being a martyr.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. ManSinha

    ManSinha Active Member

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    The Bah'ai do not have the corner on being tortured for their beliefs - from the early Christians who were thrown to the lions to instances of the end of Banda Bahadur and others and the inhumane treatment of Sambhaji Raje (Warning: The links are not for the faint of heart)

    It has happened over and over - and some of the views expressed on this forum make me wonder if we are truly enlightened yet
     
  8. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Torture is often used as part of war. It's always absurdly inhumane, regardless of who is the victim.
     
  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    I did not say the Baha'i had the corner on being tourtured for Faith, I said many had given their lives. That includes all people that accepted one of God's Messages and suffered because they accepted. It means all others that gave their lives for the good of all.

    The Baha'i Faith is the last example of people giving their lives to spread a message from God. Never before have so many fed the growth of a new born faith with their lives. 10's of thousands in such a short time.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. ManSinha

    ManSinha Active Member

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    Wrong again - this is what I have been commenting against - using superlatives to describe something when you are unaware of facts

    The holocaust in northern India
     
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  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    You are posting differnt stories than what I am talking about.

    Regards Tony
     
  12. ManSinha

    ManSinha Active Member

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    Of course I am (read heavy sarcasm)

    Anything that factually goes against what you believe is different or irrelevant
     
    #652 ManSinha, Mar 17, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
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  13. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Welcome to the forum!
     
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    You are free to see it all how you wish to and impute any intent as you wish to, be it right or wrong.

    Peace be with you and all.

    Regards Tony
     
  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Infallibility

    One may like to read my post #168 in another thread which is very relevant here.

    Regards
     
  16. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Infallibility

    One may like to read my post #77,in another thread which is very relevant here.

    Regards
     
  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Both those posts prove humans are prone to error.

    They have not proved that God's Messengers are not Infallible.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Your interpretation is from the very fallible perspective of a strongly biased human being and not relevant to whether Baha'u'llah is who he claims to be. From this perspective you cannot judge the infallibility of Baha'u'llah, nor any one else.
     
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  19. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I'm curious, Paarsurrey. Do the Amadiyyas consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad infallible?
     
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  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is only a Successor of Muhammad in our times. Even Muhammad could make mistakes of understanding and did not have any supernatural powers:

    AYAH al-Isra` 17:93
    Arabic[​IMG] أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِّن زُخْرُفٍ أَوْ تَرْقَىٰ فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَن نُّؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّىٰ تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا كِتَابًا نَّقْرَؤُهُ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنتُ إِلَّا بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا [​IMG]
    Transliteration[​IMG] Aw yakoona laka baytun min zukhrufin aw tarqa fee alssama-i walan nu/mina liruqiyyika hattatunazzila AAalayna kitaban naqraohu qul subhana rabbee hal kuntu illa basharan rasoolan
    Literal
    (Word by Word) Or is for you a house of ornament or you ascend into the sky. And never we will believe in your ascension until you bring down to us a book we could read it." Say, "Glorified (is) my Lord! "What am I but a human, a Messenger."
    Sher Ali[​IMG] `Or, thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a Book that we can read.' Say, `Holy is my Lord ! I am but a mortal sent as a Messenger.'
    John Medows Rodwell[​IMG] Or thou have a house of gold; or thou mount up into Heaven; nor will we believe in thy mounting up, till thou send down to us a book which we may read." SAY: Praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?
    al-Isra` 17:93


    Regards
     
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