Independent Catholic Churches and the Liberal Catholic Church

[Herr Heinrich]

Have any of you heard of these organizations? What are your thoughts?

Liberal Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Independent Catholic Churches - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I know of independent Catholic churches and have attended such liturgies, though my communion is with Rome. Many of these churches exercise what are called "valid but illicit" priestly ministries. That is to say they have obtained the objective criteria for the performance of the sacraments, even though they are using them formally outside of the Church's visible unity.

I've not heard of the "Liberal Catholic Church".

Honestly, I can understand or sympathize with the motivations behind many of these churches. In the end, however, I feel safer on the Ark steered by the Church of Rome than any of the innumerable lifeboats or driftwood floating on the tumultuous sea.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

I know of independent Catholic churches and have attended such liturgies, though my communion is with Rome. Many of these churches exercise what are called "valid but illicit" priestly ministries. That is to say they have obtained the objective criteria for the performance of the sacraments, even though they are using them formally outside of the Church's visible unity.

I've not heard of the "Liberal Catholic Church".

Honestly, I can understand or sympathize with the motivations behind many of these churches. In the end, however, I feel safer on the Ark steered by the Church of Rome than any of the innumerable lifeboats or driftwood floating on the tumultuous sea.

Interesting. Why do you feel safer with the Church of Rome?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

For highly complex reasons of soteriology and ecclesiology. Basically, I believe Christ founded only a single, institutional, visible Church, which is His Body, and so is united to His Person. It is the only objective and divinely willed means of the dispensation of grace at human hands.

Now, knowing this I feel that I sin against God's plan for human unity if I were to join a schismatic communion, breaking apart further the sign and vocation to universal fraternity which he delivered to us in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

 

[eamonnroma]

I know of independent Catholic churches and have attended such liturgies, though my communion is with Rome. Many of these churches exercise what are called "valid but illicit" priestly ministries. That is to say they have obtained the objective criteria for the performance of the sacraments, even though they are using them formally outside of the Church's visible unity.

I've not heard of the "Liberal Catholic Church".

Honestly, I can understand or sympathize with the motivations behind many of these churches. In the end, however, I feel safer on the Ark steered by the Church of Rome than any of the innumerable lifeboats or driftwood floating on the tumultuous sea.

There are many Catholic Churches, not just the Roman Catholic Church. I do not think that the many Orthodox Churches would be happy with your saying that the Ark is guided by the Church of Rome. Don't forget in the catholic apostolic church - the pope is the patriarch of the west, with no more authority than the other 4 historical patriarchs. He is the considered to be the first amongst equals. That is where his 'supremacy' lies.

 

[EverChanging]

Yes, I've heard of them. In general I am sympathetic to them but in different ways because there are so many different streams within the Independent Sacramental Movement (which includes Catholic-identified and other types of sacramental spirituality including the esoteric and non-Christian). The Liberal Catholic Church is based in theosophy so it wouldn't appeal to me personally except that their liturgies are still very majestic with many trappings of traditional Catholicism.

They cover a wide range. Some are very traditional liturgically but might ordain women or bless gay marriages. Some might even bless gay unions but not ordain women -- the Liberal Catholic Church is like this. Others are very modern liturgically but liberal or charismatic. There are groups that are very conservative Anglican and Catholic spin offs, there are counterparts to Eastern Orthodoxy, there are some that are a mixture of neo-pagan and Christian thought or that incorporate themes from what we term Gnostic literature. Many in this movement are solitary clergy who primarily worship alone in their own homes or chapels, offering up the mass.

The dialogue among adherents of the ISM is different than the divides you find in mainstream Christianity. I find it refreshing, but there is not a lot of material written to get a personal perspective. Much of what has been written is critical or dismissive.

 

[PlicsidaLoreal]

Rome Tries to Keep All Catholic Churches and Even Protestants and Muslims too, in good communion with Rome.

The Pope has done a lot to reach out even to The Hindus and Buddhists .. Many Efforts and Much money and Many Books have been published by Roman Catholics who seem to have a Longing to Unite their Faith * OR To miX their Faith in with Other Faiths. Such as Islam. For eXample.

The roman Catholics have added the very Core, Foundational teachings, revelations, prophecies, and message of Their Prophet Mohammad, To their very own faith. Mohammad's Prophetic revelations that The Ishmaelite's had been given an Abrahamic Covenant. Mohammad's Revelation that He was a direct descendant of Ishmael. And His Revelation that there were Ishmaelite peoples still alive, living during His Lifetime. All Revelations and Prophetic Claims.

These Revelations are not in the Bible nor in History, And they are against all basic Bible teaching and Historical Biblical depictions. In the bible. Nevertheless Roman Catholics today also teach these very revealed prophecies of Their Prophet Mohammad. it is a Sola Quran - Faith.

also His Core Revelation - that Muslims serve the Same God as Christians and as Abraham.

I have also heard of the meetings with The Pope and Great Leaders of India and Africa. And heard of the - "Liberal Catholic Church".

I know that The Catholic Church was First Started in Rome. And the majority of Roman Catholics are willing to Allow the Conclusions, Details and FINAL Decisions of their Faith, to be Decided and Concluded in Rome. Catholics have additional Fathers, Prophets and Revelators - such as Mohammad, come along and build on to the general faith. I hope that Catholics worldwide will have success and happiness that will lead to a great and better future for their peoples.

 

[Magus]

Independent Catholic Church = Protestant Church .

 

[PlicsidaLoreal]

The various adapting positions and doctrines of all Roman Catholic administrators, Clerics, Pontificates, Prelates, and Priests have always placed them under the scrutiny of someone or another.

I honestly believe - that the Pontiff Francis plan is to receive equal scrutiny and equal adversity from all equally. That those opposing The Catholic faith and Catholic actions will fill their appetites feasting on the condemnation coming also from Roman Catholics. And those in favor of Catholicism will eventually again recover, reclaim and repossess their faith in the Pontiff Francis.
And the harder they must work at making this recovery recover, reclamation and repossession in their faith in the Pontiff Francis, the closer they will be bonded and bound to the Roman Catholic faith.

The Pope knows that Roman Catholic Love the Pontiffs no matter what they do. And that is why they call them Father. { Daddy } Holy Father. Roman Catholics love to work their way back into their Fathers arms no matter what apostate, heretical, sinful and untruthful statements they make.

This is their love - This is their faith. In The end - The Roman Catholic Church survives by doing what it took to stay on top - - Is It that The Truth was never the battle. ?

 

[metis]

The Pope knows that Roman Catholic Love the Pontiffs no matter what they do. And that is why they call them Father. { Daddy } Holy Father. Roman Catholics love to work their way back into their Fathers arms no matter what apostate, heretical, sinful and untruthful statements they make.

This is their love - This is their faith. In The end - The Roman Catholic Church survives by doing what it took to stay on top - - Is It that The Truth was never the battle. ?

Ah, just what RF needs, more of good old fashioned anti-Catholic bigotry put out by those who do not know what they're talking about.

BTW, the use of "father" by Catholics does not come from "abba", which is Hebrew for "daddy", but instead from "presbyter" from a Latin translation taken from the Greek that means "elder", and this is what's used in Koine Greek in the NT.

BTW, condemning an entire religion or denomination is prohibited here at RF, but one can go after specific teachings they may disagree with.

 

[PlicsidaLoreal]

Hi.
What has possessed, frenzied, consumed and enthralled You to imagine that I would be thinking that anything in Latin or from The Canaanite, Persian Arabian, European region called Italy / Italians would ever use any language structures that derive anything from Hebrew language ?

I have no idea what You are saying or what You mean .

Do You even have a malformish intention to discuss anything about what I have said or eXplain about what You Yourself are saying. ?

I do not pretend to be on the same topic as You, nor do I pretend to have scriptures for my faith. I have the actual FACTS and actual scriptures for my faith. - - The fact is that many Catholics today { NOW } TODAY - all across the internet are condemning The Pontiff Francis and calling Him heretical and even apostate.

I AM ONLY COMMENTING ON THE FACTS. I do not need to make proclamations of condemnation. This was my topic.
This is what You already should know and condemnation would be your own doings, should You seek to the reserving of the rights and prerogatives of condemnations for You and Your religion alone.

Your envisioning scheme that depicts me condemning anything or condemning anyone is nothing but another one of Your many diversions that are the buildings of Your faith.

I have condemned nothing. You have already condemned Yourself and Your condamnation will end up leading You Yourself to condemning the entire Roman Catholic faith if Your continue to proceed with such foolish PROHIBATCHlSH, wackering, jiving, drivelish quack that lead to a bible believer such as myself asking simple basic questions.

I do not need to go after specific teachings - I can simply go after every single last one of Your very own teachings and use the scriptures to demonstrate the truth that You will be forced to deny because You are what You are. I am from my father and You are from Your Father and the works and drainings of Your father is what You do.

Please guzzle onward in Your Fathers procklamentation, i do not need to consume or condemn You or anyone. Please do not waste my time pretending to force feed me. No Thanks.

This is fact - I do not need to condemn You in order to do this - What You are, that is Your business.

Do not pretend that a child that You can trip up with foolishness types from this keyboard.

 

[PlicsidaLoreal]

Your Prophecy is a lie.

I think that Pope Francis knows the truth. The Bible Prophecy - foretells the future of the Hebrew, Jewish Peoples.
Joel 3:2 – “I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.”
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof...............................................
Although there were Christians in the Middle East at the Time of Jesus. The Christians such as the Apostles and Believers - who began to believe upon Jesus.
However I can find no prophecy in the Bible - for the Roman Catholic Church - Nor Prophecy for any Christians in the Middle East, doing anything Else = but Preaching the Message of the Scriptures and of Jesus Christ. The Idea that Christians have a special role or place in Jerusalem is something that You can imagine, invent or make a part of reality.
However there is no Prophecy, PLAN or ROLE for a Christian Church or a Christian organization in Rome or Jerusalem. There could be Christians in Jerusalem and Rome at the End Time. When Christ Returns to Defend Judah / Israel.
But will these People will be genetic Jews or Spiritual Jews ? or Both ?
The Scriptures - make a clear distinction - between Gentiles and Jews - all the way up to the end , Just before Christ Returns. I also - am not sure why Catholics think that they need to have Holy Sites in Jerusalem. Can not the Pope ask Christ to make another Location near Rome, a Special, spiritual, Holy, Designated Location - where Romantic Catholics can have an alternative Holy Site, that is Just as Holy and Special.. ?

Catholics have already added many, Many, Many foreign Ideas, practices and ceremonies to their Catholic Traditions that are not in Scripture, Not in Hebrew Tradition or part of the Literal Original Gospel Message. Why become focused on Jerusalem, where the Majority of people do not Follow Catholic Faith.

Since there is no Prophecy or Revelation or Future Predicted ROLE for a Christian Church in Rome or Jerusalem. - Don't You think that Catholics make it hard on themselves and other, by insisting that they have some type of ROLE or PLAN in Jerusalem. All based on Imaginary, Wishful prideful MythConceptive Projection. Why not just scatter yourselves around the world and be truly more like the Abraham figure and Re - Connect to Abraham and return back to Rome and then visit Jerusalem - after a few hundred years. That Would bring Catholics So much Closer to Following in the Footsteps of Abraham.

 

[metis]

Your Prophecy is a lie.

I think that Pope Francis knows the truth. The Bible Prophecy - foretells the future of the Hebrew, Jewish Peoples.
Joel 3:2 – “I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.”
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof...............................................
Although there were Christians in the Middle East at the Time of Jesus. The Christians such as the Apostles and Believers - who began to believe upon Jesus.
However I can find no prophecy in the Bible - for the Roman Catholic Church - Nor Prophecy for any Christians in the Middle East, doing anything Else = but Preaching the Message of the Scriptures and of Jesus Christ. The Idea that Christians have a special role or place in Jerusalem is something that You can imagine, invent or make a part of reality.
However there is no Prophecy, PLAN or ROLE for a Christian Church or a Christian organization in Rome or Jerusalem. There could be Christians in Jerusalem and Rome at the End Time. When Christ Returns to Defend Judah / Israel.
But will these People will be genetic Jews or Spiritual Jews ? or Both ?
The Scriptures - make a clear distinction - between Gentiles and Jews - all the way up to the end , Just before Christ Returns. I also - am not sure why Catholics think that they need to have Holy Sites in Jerusalem. Can not the Pope ask Christ to make another Location near Rome, a Special, spiritual, Holy, Designated Location - where Romantic Catholics can have an alternative Holy Site, that is Just as Holy and Special.. ?

Catholics have already added many, Many, Many foreign Ideas, practices and ceremonies to their Catholic Traditions that are not in Scripture, Not in Hebrew Tradition or part of the Literal Original Gospel Message. Why become focused on Jerusalem, where the Majority of people do not Follow Catholic Faith.

Since there is no Prophecy or Revelation or Future Predicted ROLE for a Christian Church in Rome or Jerusalem. - Don't You think that Catholics make it hard on themselves and other, by insisting that they have some type of ROLE or PLAN in Jerusalem. All based on Imaginary, Wishful prideful MythConceptive Projection. Why not just scatter yourselves around the world and be truly more like the Abraham figure and Re - Connect to Abraham and return back to Rome and then visit Jerusalem - after a few hundred years. That Would bring Catholics So much Closer to Following in the Footsteps of Abraham.

Maybe ramble less and be more specific on fewer points as the above really makes so little sense at times. Just a recommendation.

BTW, which denomination is your church in, may I ask?

 

[metis]

BTW, there's no such thing as a "Liberal Catholic Church".

 

[GoodbyeDave]

If a group is formally incorporated as the Liberal Catholic Church, who are you to tell them that they can't use the name? But of course you're just trying to be clever. Try harder.

The London cathedral of the LCC is just a few miles away from me. Since they specify that "We maintain intellectual freedom for all. No teaching, creed, tradition, or writing must be accepted with anything more than general agreement." I'd say that gives their membership pretty broad scope to be as liberal as they like!

 

[starsofirelight]

Hello.

I was wondering why the Popes and priests and bishops do not correct and straighten out people when they mistakenly call them " Father "

If their real title is " elder " why has the 1300 years of mislabeling these "elders" gone unchecked ? ?

If the Catholic leaders are taking on the character and role of a " presbyter " from The Greek or Latin language, why continue to call one another daddy or papa or father. ? And why respond and answer to everyone who calls them Father ?

I can think of absolutely no record on earth of anyone in the Roman Catholic Church who has ever called anyone a " presbyter " from the third century - to today.

If, this is where the concept came from - can You please show me where there any historical, official, magisterium, from the top example of anyone in the headship development of the Roman Catholic hierarchy ever once calling one another or being called or addressing or responding to their title in the Latin or Greek as a --- - " presbyter "

I have to be honest - It simply does not exist. It is not where it CAME FROM.

Could You please be honest and accept or acknowledge based on the facts, that this is not where the word " FATHER " originated from. And could it be rather that this is simply something called revisionist history that Roman Catholics try and pass off to the uneducated with short-term memories and one step theology faith, in order to divert their attention from the truth ?

The internet has no record of Your claims.
Please check the internet search. search for this link.

Click here -= shorturl.at/iPY68

How can You prove something for which there is no record or evidence for ? Other than a 20 th century off the wall claim. If I am wrong, please explain. Thank You.

 

[metis]

Hello.

I was wondering why the Popes and priests and bishops do not correct and straighten out people when they mistakenly call them " Father "

If their real title is " elder " why has the 1300 years of mislabeling these "elders" gone unchecked ? ?

If the Catholic leaders are taking on the character and role of a " presbyter " from The Greek or Latin language, why continue to call one another daddy or papa or father. ? And why respond and answer to everyone who calls them Father ?

I can think of absolutely no record on earth of anyone in the Roman Catholic Church who has ever called anyone a " presbyter " from the third century - to today.

If, this is where the concept came from - can You please show me where there any historical, official, magisterium, from the top example of anyone in the headship development of the Roman Catholic hierarchy ever once calling one another or being called or addressing or responding to their title in the Latin or Greek as a --- - " presbyter "

I have to be honest - It simply does not exist. It is not where it CAME FROM.

Could You please be honest and accept or acknowledge based on the facts, that this is not where the word " FATHER " originated from. And could it be rather that this is simply something called revisionist history that Roman Catholics try and pass off to the uneducated with short-term memories and one step theology faith, in order to divert their attention from the truth ?

The internet has no record of Your claims.
Please check the internet search. search for this link.

Click here -= shorturl.at/iPY68

How can You prove something for which there is no record or evidence for ? Other than a 20 th century off the wall claim. If I am wrong, please explain. Thank You.

The use of the title "father" come from the world "presbyteros" in Greek that is indeed better translated as "elder".

The use of the word "abba" is slang for "daddy" in Hebrew, so it's root is different than the above, and it is a reference to God in the verse cited.

No Catholic is calling their priest "God", so it's much to do about nothing.