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Incompleteness of Science proves Truth Holder

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The order of proofs is not important. I argue, that probability to find the first proof (I am talking about true theories and hypothesis-es) is less than 100%, and probability to find the second proof is less than 100.

You seem to be very confused. If we have a system that can automatically produce a prove or disproof of any theorem (Gödel is wrong), then the probability of finding a first (dis)proof is 100% but that says nothing about the particular (dis)proof itself. The probability of finding a second (independent one) is less than 100% but the probabilities are associated with order of finding the proofs and how many there actually are, not the particular proofs that were found.
 
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questfortruth

Well-Known Member
You seem to be very confused. If we have a system that can automatically produce a prove or disproof of any theorem (Gödel is wrong), then the probability of finding a first (dis)proof is 100% but that says nothing about the particular (dis)proof itself. The probability of finding a second (independent one) is less than 100% but the probabilities are associated with order of finding the proofs and how many there actually are, not the particular proofs that were found.
Please rewrite your comment by excluding word "disproof". I am talking about true theories or hypothesis.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Please rewrite your comment by excluding word "disproof". I am talking about true theories or hypothesis.

Firstly, are you incapable of doing that yourself? Secondly, we don't know that the example you chose, the Riemann Hypothesis, is actually true (that's why it's a hypothesis or conjecture, not a theorem), so a dispoof might also be possible. Thirdly, it doesn't make any difference.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Evidence: in 2020AD there are several ways to prove the Pythagorean Theorem, but only one way to prove the Fermat's Last theorem. Theorems with infinite ways of proving are not known yet.

OK.


Application to Astrobiology:
Same line of reasoning could tell us, that even having perfect conditions for life on an Earth-like planet, one does not have perfect 100% probability of abiogenesis.

What do you mean could tell us? You post all that and then best you can say is that one thing could be applicable to another.

If you don't/can't make the argument that it does tell us, why bother?


Application to Theology: because there is gap between Absolute Truth and proof, then:
1. There must be God, who holds the Truth: e.g, Physics is incomplete without Metaphysics.
2. God is Spirit of Absolute Truth, because He knows all about Riemann Hypothesis even without any proofs.

Nonsense. You have not shown any correlation between the premise and your conclusion.

Are you making the argument that the god you believe in is omniscient? If you are, then you need to explain why he created A&E in such a way that they would fail.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Present any mistake then.

I would say that there are - at the most charitable - a number of logical leaps. Here are a few claims from the OP that are far from self-evident, IMO:

- "because the number of ways to prove something is limited"
- Evidence comparing pythagoras to fermat - perhaps true, but without meaning.
- abiogenesis: your claim doesn't help anything, not can it be used as a building block to further claims
- application to theology - too many logical leaps to count

Really, it's on you to prove your points, it's no on the rest of us to help you debug your reasoning.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Suppose Dr. Gödel is wrong. In such case the probability to find [given unlimited research time and resources] the first way to prove the Riemann Hypothesis is perfect 100%.
Gödel's incompleteness theorems say that in any formal system above a certain basic level of simplicity, the system will contain propositions that can't be proved within the system. The examples are typically cases of self-reference.

The Riemann hypothesis says "All non-trivial zeros of the zeta function have real part ½". If s is a number >1 then ζ(s) is the sum of an infinite series beginning 1 + 1/2^s + 1/3^s + 1/4^s ...

In what way do you say Gödel's theorems are relevant to proving or falsifying the Riemann hypothesis?
But because the second way of proving Riemann Hypothesis could have been the first instead of the second, then it is wrong to assign to every first proof the perfect 100% probability.
What is your demonstration that the Riemann hypothesis is capable of being solved at all? Without that you have no basis for saying that given limitless time it's 100% certain to be solved.
Application to Theology: because there is gap between Absolute Truth and proof, then:
1. There must be God, who holds the Truth: e.g, Physics is incomplete without Metaphysics.
I don't think there's such a thing as "absolute truth".

Please define "absolute truth" and give an example, along with the demonstration that the example is indeed an "absolute truth".

And I take it by 'metaphysics' you mean 'supernatural metaphysics'. Metaphysics without the supernatural is a substantial branch of philosophy, dealing with what "we can call topic neutral notions. Instances are cause, class, property, relation, quality, kind, resemblance, quantity, number, substance, fact, truth, law of nature, power, and others. These notions are perfectly general, are very difficult to analyse and interconnect [...]" (David Armstrong).

If you mean 'supernatural metaphysics', please state the definition of 'supernatural' you're using.
2. God is Spirit of Absolute Truth, because He knows all about Riemann Hypothesis even without any proofs.
As it stands that statement can't be applicable to reality, only to some otherworld you've imagined, not essentially different to, say, imagining Marvel Universe. In your version you've imagined a being, and attributed to that being knowledge that you've yet to show is capable of existing.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
If we have a system that can automatically produce a prove of any theorem (Gödel is wrong), then the probability of finding a first proof is 100% but that says nothing about the particular proof itself.
Wrong. The 100 % probability means by probability definition, that all proofs are achieved.

The probability of finding a second (independent one) is less than 100% but the probabilities are associated with order of finding the proofs.
Wrong again. Probabilities of independent ways of proving are not dependent on historic order: but even if the second proof relies on the results of the first one, there is a chance, that the second proof would not be found.

the probabilities are associated with order of finding the proofs and how many there actually are, not the particular proofs that were found.
If you are confused by the word Probability, then replace it by the word Option, or Case, or Variant, or Chance. There is option on the table, that neither first nor the second proofs would be found.

Secondly, we don't know that the example you chose, the Riemann Hypothesis, is actually true (that's why it's a hypothesis or conjecture, not a theorem), so a dispoof might also be possible.
The Riemann Hypothesis was taken as a true hypothesis. But if it is false, then because there exist a true hypothesis, then say in abstract way: "let us suppose, that given hypothesis is true."
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
a) I don't think there's such a thing as "absolute truth". Please define "absolute truth" and give an example, along with the demonstration that the example is indeed an "absolute truth".

b) And I take it by 'metaphysics' you mean 'supernatural metaphysics'.

c) In your version you've imagined a being, and attributed to that being knowledge that you've yet to show is capable of existing.
a) The absolute truth means, that given unlimited research time and resources, the Riemann Hypothesis (if latter is true) would not be proven false.
b) The physics is incomplete not without "natural metaphysics" like poetry, but without "supernatural metaphysics" like God.
c) The God surely exists for any fundamental theist, and God is undecided for atheists. Combining these two facts, one logically concludes, that God does exist for all. As example, in the video above is said, that Riemann Hypothesis is true, if RH is undecided (unprovable). Therefore, if God is undecided, but for theists He exists, then atheist should conclude, that God exists. In analogy with RH.

Are you making the argument that the god you believe in is omniscient? If you are, then you need to explain why he created A&E in such a way that they would fail.
God can not know about an actions of freewill people without creating them in the first place.
That follows from definition of Freewill. But nobody can even dream, that somebody will commit sin. The sin is absolute absurd. Sin is love for DEATH. Therefore it was perfectly safe to create the freewill creatures.

-a) "because the number of ways to prove something is limited"
-b) Evidence comparing pythagoras to fermat - perhaps true, but without meaning.
-c) abiogenesis: your claim doesn't help anything, not can it be used as a building block to further claims
-d) application to theology - too many logical leaps to count
a) that is explained in the text. Please quote the explanation.
b) it shows, that I relied on the observable facts. Thus, it is evidence for my theory.
c) I have used word "could".
d) I repeat my proof:
1. The reality has sense [There is law of reality: Aristotle's Logic. Due to it the reality is logical, thus, has sense.]
2. Science is part of reality,
3. Science has absolutely no sense, if it can not answer all questions. If the complete picture is missing, then the Flat Earthers could be right: the see round Earth as hallucination, or evil deception.
4. Science can ask God. Thus, Science becomes complete. The Science has missed to get one Scientist: God.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Wrong. The 100 % probability means by probability definition, that all proofs are achieved.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. In your text you say "the first way to prove the Riemann Hypothesis is perfect 100%", which you later indicate you you mean the probability of finding it is 100%. That's still the probability of finding any proof (assuming you think that Gödel is wrong in such a way as to make finding a proof a certainty, rather than just that a proof exists - which appears to be what you're assuming).

Probabilities of independent ways of proving are not dependent on historic order: but even if the second proof relies on the results of the first one, there is a chance, that the second proof would not be found.

Of course the probabilities are attached to the order. If there is at least one proof, and you assume you have some way of finding at least one with certainty (which seems to be your assumption), then the probability of the first is 100% and the second less but if you happen to find them in the other order, then the new first was still 100% and the new second less.

Added: Actually a better way to look at it is that the probability of finding one proof is 100% and the probability of find two proofs (in any order) is less (given your apparent assumptions).
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
a) The absolute truth means, that given unlimited research time and resources, the Riemann Hypothesis (if latter is true) would not be proven false.
No, I meant how do you define your concept of "truth" and in what circumstances do you say that "truth" also has the quality "absolute"?

b) The physics is incomplete not without "natural metaphysics" like poetry, but without "supernatural metaphysics" like God.
But God, as far as I can tell, exists only as a concept, or thing imagined, in individual brains. Otherwise, surely, there'd be a definition of God somewhere that was appropriate to a being with objective existence, such that if we found a real suspect we could determine whether it were God or not. But there's no such definition.
c) The God surely exists for any fundamental theist, and God is undecided for atheists. Combining these two facts, one logically concludes, that God does exist for all.
Exists as a thing imagined, or as a concept, no problem. But as an aspect of reality, big problem.
As example, in the video above is said, that Riemann Hypothesis is true, if RH is undecided (unprovable).
Undecided means we don't know whether the Riemann hypothesis is true or not, but we don't know any in principle impediment to finding out.

Unprovable means we know that in principle the Riemann hypothesis can neither be shown to be true nor to be false.

Choose one.
Therefore, if God is undecided
You haven't told me what real thing the word "God" denotes.
but for theists He exists
That's a matter for theists. Why would it concern unbelievers?
then atheist should conclude, that God exists. In analogy with RH.
I see no analogy between the question of whether the Riemann hypothesis is solvable, and the question of what if any real thing the word "God" is intended to denote.

Let alone where Gödel's incompleteness theorems might come into it.
1. The reality has sense [There is law of reality: Aristotle's Logic. Due to it the reality is logical, thus, has sense.
What do you mean by that? That nature is an entity capable of thought and reason?

Or that human brains are capable of comprehending reality?
2. Science is part of reality.
Strictly speaking, "science" is a concept, hence found only in individual brains. But it's true that scientists are real, and their observations and data gathering about reality are real.
3. Science has absolutely no sense, if it can not answer all questions.
Science never claimed to "answer all questions", only to explore and describe reality and seek to explain it. Since the conclusions of science are based on empiricism and induction, they're always tentative, never absolute at all ─ though that doesn't stop science from being remarkably useful. It's the utility of the results that in the end justifies science, not any pretense to have access to total knowledge.
If the complete picture is missing, then the Flat Earthers could be right: the see round Earth as hallucination, or evil deception.
The complete picture is, on all the present evidence, never going to be available (and if it nonetheless is, we'd have no way of knowing whether what we know was in fact complete or not). Meanwhile the earth is not flat. So your statement is not correct.
4. Science can ask God.
So can I. But as you know, neither of us will get an answer because God never says or does. If God did, Riemann would just have to ask his dad, who was a Lutheran clergyman, who would just have to ask God, and we'd have had the answer right after the question.
Thus, Science becomes complete.
Nope.
The Science has missed to get one Scientist: God.
That's like saying the US Marines are missing one Marine, Superman. It's a cheerful thought, but it doesn't work in reality.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
What is science missing, the origin human being male self who converted his ONE body and ONE male life and became an abominated thinker, the Destroyer self.

Who as a male and a conscious male knows that he did it to self, a long time ago.

Every time he begins to re develop self healing presence, of life mind and body, he re invents life destruction, so never becomes self complete...for he never owned historically the male intention to be owner of a life form.

Reasoning for that male historically...MATHS...as a male thought condition, a human male, his own human male beliefs, only stated by his male conscious human life in self male human presence.

Then quotes.....constants. Yet the constant is owned by his formula....it is owned by his machine design to cause a constant controlled machine reaction, as owned/operated and controlled by a male quoting that he is owner of the energy/power and body God the planet of stone mass O.

Mass and energy he says is a numbered equation.

Yet God a planet is just a very large held mass...in reality.

So then you would ask him, okay inventor of the statements of MATHS, where did you get the idea for MATHS from?

^ recorded o UFO radiation vision memory of a stage by stage removal of ^ mass of the mountain peak by the UFO radiation mass...with the presence of water surrounding the mountain.

How he tried to copy that theme with his building of ^ MATHS he says PHI...his pyramid structure...I rebuilt that mountain he lied.

Historically the male who invented MATHS said MATHS was a half male body beast like thinking capability...which proves that he falsified natural information.....as self proof that he did.

Said the constant machine male owned, held condition, to create conversion, which he applies as a self inventor, creator of his machine, so he creates and also invents the CONSTANT...for the answer is not creation, it is how to remove creation from existing, as a one way string.

O he says to 1.

Which in reality MATHS says...TH O TH O TH O TH O TH.

His numbering system on a line/string.

O mass….to remove by 1

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 then 1

Removal of ONE...so one is not there after he gets to 10 position God, 1 disappeared...so he then quotes minus 1.

Knowing the whole time what his science theorising/formula and reaction incurs as his inventive creation...to remove mass back past 0 mass, spatial cold history and just leave radiating heated space instead without mass.

Which historically is the Abomination of the Mother, spatial womb...and if you heat up spatial cold history, then our Earth gases DISAPPEAR.

What he lied about in science, he says 1 is HOLY...but his intention is to have 1 removed.

10 therefore never really existed...for if you remove 1 before you obtain 10, which is a constant held 10101010 statement....then science and MATHS would not even exist.

So he proves he falsified the inheritance 1 as 0 to remain cold and constant.

MATHS was always a MALE beast theme.

How to ARK land the ground attack on Nature and remove its physical presence to board the ARK as 2 x 2....for it was removal, it was never creating.

Boarding of the ARK meant...water/oxygen and microbe ground lost...to water/oxygen and microbe evaporation to form new cloud mass...to block out SUN UFO radiation.

Male science caused the extra irradiation state, then falsified claiming that God saved it by the angels...when cloud mass already existed. He had to increase CLOUD mass which is what he lied about.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Of course the probabilities are attached to the order. If there is at least one proof, and you assume you have some way of finding at least one with certainty (which seems to be your assumption),
I am not assuming the 100% and not holding up to it. I am proving, that there is a chance, that a true hypothesis will never be proven true even once.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
No, I meant how do you define your concept of "truth" and in what circumstances do you say that "truth" also has the quality "absolute"?

WELL THEN, REMOVE THE WORD "ABSOLUTE" FROM MY DEFINITION.

But God, as far as I can tell, exists only as a concept, or thing imagined, in individual brains. Otherwise, surely, there'd be a definition of God somewhere that was appropriate to a being with objective existence, such that if we found a real suspect we could determine whether it were God or not. But there's no such definition.

THE GOD IS THE NAME OF THE BEING, THE UNIQUE NAME. HOWEVER GOD HAS MANY NAMES, BUT THE NAME, WHICH SHARE ALL THEISTIC RELIGIONS IS SIMPLY "GOD".

Undecided means we don't know whether the Riemann hypothesis is true or not, but we don't know any in principle impediment to finding out.

NO. IN MATH THE TERM UNDECIDABLE (I MEANT NOT "UNDECIDED", BUT THE UNDECIDABLE: PLEASE CORRECT MY COMMENTS) MEAN, THAT IT NEVER WILL BE PROVEN OR DISPROVEN.

Let alone where Gödel's incompleteness theorems might come into it.
What do you mean by that? That nature is an entity capable of thought and reason?
Or that human brains are capable of comprehending reality?

THE REALITY HAS SENSE TO A SCIENTISTS, I MEAN: "human brains are capable of comprehending reality" ONLY WITH GOD'S INFORMATION.

But as you know, neither of us will get an answer because God never says or does. If God did, Riemann would just have to ask his dad, who was a Lutheran clergyman, who would just have to ask God, and we'd have had the answer right after the question.
Nope.
That's like saying the US Marines are missing one Marine, Superman. It's a cheerful thought, but it doesn't work in reality.

IT IS BECAUSE THE JESUS HAS NOT RETURNED YET. HE KNOWS THINGS BETTER THAN US. WE WILL ASK HIM ABOUT RH IN A POST-LETTER.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I am not assuming the 100% and not holding up to it. I am proving, that there is a chance, that a true hypothesis will never be proven true even once.

Not only does that depend on assumptions about how Gödel might be wrong (if the set of true theorems was a recursive set and we could find the characteristic function, then we'd automatically have a proof or disproof of any theorem we could dream up), but so what? That's trivially true (if there is no automatic way of finding proofs), so why bother with all the other waffle about two proofs?

How does that prove Gödel's theorem or any of the other stuff you've been asserting?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
WELL THEN, REMOVE THE WORD "ABSOLUTE" FROM MY DEFINITION.
Good idea.
THE GOD IS THE NAME OF THE BEING, THE UNIQUE NAME. HOWEVER GOD HAS MANY NAMES, BUT THE NAME, WHICH SHARE ALL THEISTIC RELIGIONS IS SIMPL Y "GOD".
That makes excellent sense if God is a concept rather than a being with objective existence.
THE UNDECIDABLE: PLEASE CORRECT MY COMMENTS) MEAN, THAT IT NEVER WILL BE PROVEN OR DISPROVEN.
Okay.

If it had been demonstrated that the Riemann hypothesis is in principle undecidable, I feel confident that I’d have found that stated somewhere; but I have not.
I MEAN: "human brains are capable of comprehending reality" ONLY WITH GOD'S INFORMATION.
How can I tell whether any piece of information is ‘God’s information’ or not?

What quality does ‘God’s information’ have that ordinary information lacks?
IT IS BECAUSE THEJESUS HAS NOT RETURNED YET.
The NT says a number of times that the Son of Man, which appears to refer to Jesus, will return in the lifetime of some of Jesus’ audience and establish the Kingdom. So Jesus is getting close to being two thousand years late, no?

I still have no idea what Gödel’s incompleteness theorems have to do with any of this.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
That's trivially true (if there is no automatic way of finding proofs),
No. It became trivially after the Gödel's proof of incompleteness theorem. Prior to Gödel it was not trivially, prior to Gödel any true statement will be proven (given infinite research time). After Gödel - NO. The Gödel made a revolution.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
No. It became trivially after the Gödel's proof of incompleteness theorem. Prior to Gödel it was not trivially, prior to Gödel any true statement will be proven (given infinite research time). After Gödel - NO. The Gödel made a revolution.

You really are all over the place here. Look, if you are assuming an infinite amount of research would mean finding a proof if one existed, then what I was saying before is true about your article.

If Gödel was wrong then (given the infinite amount of research assumption) you will find a proof (possibly one of many), of any true theorem, with 100% probability and possibly find more with less than 100% probability (because there might only be one) - but the probabilities are attached to the total number of proofs found, not the individual ones, so you haven't found a contradiction and proved Gödel right.
 
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