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Incest In Bible

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Ron68, Jun 4, 2005.

  1. Ron68

    Ron68 New Member

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    INCEST :SEXUAL INTERCOURSE BETWEEN TWO PERSONS WHO ARE CLOSELY REALTED. (NEW COLLINS DICTIONARY).FOR EXAMPLE BETWEEN FATHER AND DOUGHTER,SON ANDMOTHER,FATHER –IN-LAW AND DAUGHTER-IN-LAW,BROTHER AND SISTER ETC.

    GENESIS 19;30-37







    INCEST IN GODS BOOK BETWEEN A FATHER AND HIS DOUGHTERS:


    Lot and His Daughters

    30Lot was afraid to stay in Zoar. So he and​

    his two daughters went to live in the​

    mountains. They lived in a cave there. 31One​

    day the older daughter said to the younger,​

    “Everywhere on the earth, men and women​

    marry {and have a family}. But our father is​

    old and there are no men around here to give​

    us children. 32So let’s get our father drunk​

    with wine. Then we can have sexual relations​

    with him. That way we can use our father to​

    keep our family alive!”​

    33That night the two girls went to their​

    father and got him drunk with wine. Then the​

    older daughter went into her father’s bed and​

    had sexual relations with him. Lot {was so​

    drunk} that he did not even know when she​

    came to bed or when she got up.​


    34The next day, the older daughter said to​

    the younger daughter, “Last night I went to​

    bed with my father. Let’s get him drunk with​

    wine again tonight. Then you can go into his​

    bed and have sex with him. In this way we can​

    use our father to have children and our family​

    will not come to an end.” 35So that night the​

    two girls got their father drunk with wine.​

    Then the younger daughter went into his bed​

    and had sexual relations with him. Again, Lot​

    {was so drunk} that he did not know when she​

    came to bed or when she got up.​






    36Both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant.

    Their father was the father of their babies.

    37The older daughter gave birth to a son. She​

    named him Moab.*Moab is the father of all​

    the Moabite people living today. 38The​

    younger daughter also gave birth to a son. She​

    named him Ben-Ammi.*Ben-Ammi is the​




    INCEST BETWEEN FATHER-IN-LAW AND DAUGHTER-IN-LAW


    15Judah traveled on that road. He saw her​

    but thought that she was a prostitute.*(Her​

    face was covered with a veil like a prostitute.)​

    16So Judah went to her and said, “Let me have​

    sexual relations with you” (Judah did not know​

    that she was Tamar, his daughter-in-law.)​

    She said, “How much will you give me?”​


    17Judah answered, “I will send you a young​

    goat from my flock.”​

    She answered, “I agree to that. But first you​

    must give me something to keep until you​

    send me the goat.”​

    18Judah asked, “What do you want me to​

    give you as proof that I will send you the goat?”​

    Tamar answered, “Give me your seal and​

    its string*that you use on your letters. And​

    give me your walking stick.” Judah gave these​

    things to her. Then Judah and Tamar had​

    sexual relations, and Tamar became pregnant.​

    19Tamar went home and took off the veil that​

    covered her face. Then she again wore the​

    special clothes that showed she was a widow.​


    INCEST AND RAPE BETWEEN BROTHER AND SISTER:
    2 SAMUEL 13:1-22​









    Amnon Rapes Tamar



    10Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the​

    food into the bedroom and feed me by hand.”​

    So Tamar took the cakes she had made and​

    went into her brother’s bedroom. 11She started​

    to feed Amnon, but he grabbed her hand. He​

    said to her, “Sister, come and sleep with me.”

    12Tamar said to Amnon, “No, brother!

    Don’t force me to do this! Don’t do this

    shameful thing! Terrible things like this

    should never be done in Israel! 13I would​

    never get rid of my shame. And people would​

    think that you are just a common criminal.​

    Please, talk with the king. He will let you​

    marry me.”​

    14But Amnon refused to listen to Tamar. He​

    was stronger than Tamar. He forced her to​

    have sexual relations with him.


    21King David heard the news and became​

    very angry. 22Absalom began to hate Amnon.​

    Absalom did not say one word, good or bad,​

    to Amnon. Absalom hated Amnon because

    Amnon had raped his sister Tamar.




    SEX AND INCEST BETWEEN SON AND HIS MOTHERS!!!!!!!!
    2 SAMUEL 16:20-23​


    Absalom Asks Ahithophel for Advice

    20Absalom said to Ahithophel, “Please tell​

    us what we should do.”​

    21Ahithophel said to Absalom, “Your​

    father left some of his wives here to take​

    care of the house. Go and have sexual

    relations with them. Then all the Israelites​

    will hear that your father hates you. And all of​

    your people will be encouraged to give you​

    more support.”​

    22Then they put up a tent for Absalom on​

    the roof of the house. And Absalom had

    sexual relations with his father’s wives. ​

    All the Israelites saw it. 23At that time, the advice​

    of Ahithophel was very {important} to both​

    David and Absalom. It was as {important as}

    God’s word to a man.​
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi Ron;
    I am not sure which Bible you are using; this is from King James' Version;
    the wording is different - it does actually place a different emphasis from the Bible version you used.
    Having said that; I am not sure what point you are trying to make ?

    GENESIS 19;30-37
    19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. ​
    [There have been "cave-dwellers" all through history, not primitive ape-men, but true cultured humans forced by circumstances into such habitations. This home was quite a comedown for a family accustomed to material luxuries. The caves of the Dead Sea region have been inhabited by many people over the centuries. In fact, the famous Dead Sea Scrolls were found in such caves, left by communities of the Essene sect (Job 30:3-6).]

    19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

    19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

    19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

    19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

    19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

    19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. ​
    [There have been "cave-dwellers" all through history, not primitive ape-men, but true cultured humans forced by circumstances into such habitations. This home was quite a comedown for a family accustomed to material luxuries. The caves of the Dead Sea region have been inhabited by many people over the centuries. In fact, the famous Dead Sea Scrolls were found in such caves, left by communities of the Essene sect (Job 30:3-6).]


    19:37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
    2 SAMUEL 13:1-22
    13:1 And it came to pass after this, that Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her. ​
    [Both Absalom and Tamar were children of Maacah, one of David's many wives. Amnon was David's eldest son, born of Ahinoam (2 Samuel 3:2). The tragic events described in this chapter, Amnon's rape of Tamar and murder by Absalom, followed by the scattering of David's other sons were at least in part an outgrowth of the polygamous relationships contracted by David. Even though he was a godly man in many respects, David took many wives and concubines, and he should have known this was not pleasing to God (Genesis 2:18,21-24).]​

    13:2 And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and Amnon thought it hard for him to do anything to her.

    13:3 But Amnon had a friend, whose name was Jonadab, the son of Shimeah David's brother: and Jonadab was a very subtil man.

    13:4 And he said unto him, Why art thou, being the king's son, lean from day to day? wilt thou not tell me? And Amnon said unto him, I love Tamar, my brother Absalom's sister.

    13:5 And Jonadab said unto him, Lay thee down on thy bed, and make thyself sick: and when thy father cometh to see thee, say unto him, I pray thee, let my sister Tamar come, and give me meat, and dress the meat in my sight, that I may see it, and eat it at her hand.

    13:6 So Amnon lay down, and made himself sick: and when the king was come to see him, Amnon said unto the king, I pray thee, let Tamar my sister come, and make me a couple of cakes in my sight, that I may eat at her hand.

    13:7 Then David sent home to Tamar, saying, Go now to thy brother Amnon's house, and dress him meat.

    13:8 So Tamar went to her brother Amnon's house; and he was laid down. And she took flour, and kneaded it, and made cakes in his sight, and did bake the cakes.

    13:9 And she took a pan, and poured them out before him; but he refused to eat. And Amnon said, Have out all men from me. And they went out every man from him.

    13:10 And Amnon said unto Tamar, Bring the meat into the chamber, that I may eat of thine hand. And Tamar took the cakes which she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother.

    13:11 And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister.

    13:12 And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly.

    13:13 And I, whither shall I cause my shame to go? and as for thee, thou shalt be as one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee.

    13:14 Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her.

    13:15 Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone.

    13:16 And she said unto him, There is no cause: this evil in sending me away is greater than the other that thou didst unto me. But he would not hearken unto her.

    13:17 Then he called his servant that ministered unto him, and said, Put now this woman out from me, and bolt the door after her.

    13:18 And she had a garment of divers colors upon her: for with such robes were the king's daughters that were virgins apparelled. Then his servant brought her out, and bolted the door after her.

    13:19 And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of divers colors that was on her, and laid her hand on her head, and went on crying.

    13:20 And Absalom her brother said unto her, Hath Amnon thy brother been with thee? but hold now thy peace, my sister: he is thy brother; regard not this thing. So Tamar remained desolate in her brother Absalom's house.

    13:21 But when king David heard of all these things, he was very wroth.

    13:22 And Absalom spake unto his brother Amnon neither good nor bad: for Absalom hated Amnon, because he had forced his sister Tamar.​
    2 SAMUEL 16:20-23
    16:20 Then said Absalom to Ahithophel, Give counsel among you what we shall do.

    16:21 And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong.

    16:22 So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel. ​
    [This event both fulfilled Nathan's judgmental prophecy against David because of his sin (2 Samuel 12:11,12) and also signaled to all Jerusalem that he was taking over all the prerogatives of the king (2 Samuel 3:6-11).]

    16:23 And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counseled in those days, was as if a man had inquired at the oracle of God: so was all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom.:)
     
  3. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    I go by the KJV also. It words things better IMO.

    Oh and ron, is this a debate, or you just trying to state your opinion?
     
  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    **MOD POST**

    Moving this to Religious Debates.
     
  5. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    The Bible tells the bad along with the good, much of it is for mature audiances only, was there a reason behind this post?
     
  6. reyjamiei

    reyjamiei Member

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    According to the Bible, God created Adam and Eve, they had children, their children married and had children. And after the flood only Noah and his family remained and they replenished the earth. So I'd say that incest in the Bible is a given.
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Don't you believe that the 'creation' of Adam & Eve was a simplified way of saying that God created man and woman.

    I am no geneticist (Zilch, in fact) , but from what I know, if the whole of mankind had been based on one man and one woman, we would'nt be here today. Mankind would have disappeared in the horrors of in-breeding.:)
     
  8. reyjamiei

    reyjamiei Member

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    What I believe is irrelevant, I only stated what the Bible says, not what could be read into it or the countless interpretations of the texts. The way the Bible is written, incest is a given if you want to interpret it differantly, I have no problem with that.
     
  9. Stormygale

    Stormygale Member

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    I do not believe in incest. It is sick, cruel, and limited to only the hicks in Arkansas...just kidding. -
    On a serious front, if it soo wrong, as stated in christianity today, then why were the offspring of Adam and Eve allowed to have sex and have children who would have had to have mated...and so on and so on....
    -
    Just another one of those crazy points that strikes doubt on the facts listed in the scriptures....
     
  10. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    This passage condemns rape not incest. If it had been written with at least some understanding of genetics then it would also be condemning conception from incest. Not incest itself.

    The first of these is not incest. The second is not necessarily incest either since he is NOT having sex with his mother but with his father's wives, once of which MAY have been his mother but it is not specified.

    Again, this passage condemns rape and does not specificly suggest that incest is wrong.

    Please be very careful when using the KJV of the Bible. It is quite delibarately mistranslated in places although this is mostly with regards to witchcraft and witches.
     
  11. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    in a basically christian nation of America. I do not think we can marry our brother or sister, why is this so if we are told in the bible that great prophets partook in incest? even Abraham is reported in the bible to have married his half sister. also, why is murder illegal if we are told that these great prophets also murdered? if we use these teachings of the great ones of the bible, then we should be incestuous murderers and of course sleep with those we think to be prostitutes.
    I personally believe the stories to be lies written by the "lying pens of the scribes" as described in Jeremiah 8:7-9. But most christians must not believe Jeremiah, he said trees brought into the house fastened to the floor, and decorated with gold and silver(christmas trees?) were pagan.
     
  12. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Christians do not follow their prophets. They follow God and Jesus. I think it is good that these prophets have a darker side to them because it emphasises the point that humans are not perfect and can only strive to follow in Jesus' footsteps. If the prophets were perfect themselves, then whats to stop people bowing down to them as their dieties?
     
  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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  14. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    Why did God send prophets if they were not to be followed? Also, why did Jesus tell people to be perfect if we cannot do it? I like your last sentence :) since Jesus was the perfected human, is that why christians bow to him as their diety and make idols of him?
     
  15. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    i am glad i do not live in a dunghill :)
     
  16. Prima

    Prima Well-Known Member

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    Here is what I believe.

    There is a difference between something being inherently evil and something having a high potential for evil.

    Would a relationship between a brother and sister, or two other close relatives, be inherently wrong? No. It is two people having a relationship. That's not wrong. BUT - the judeo-christian law forbids this for good reason, because incest has a HUGE potential for evil. Look at all the things that could go wrong:

    1. Because of the close relationship, it is hard to tell whether the two people truly love each other in a maritial relationship way or just in a familial way

    2. Because they have presumably always known each other, it is more likely to happen early in life, when the girl/boy isn't quite capable of making decisions regarding relationships.

    3. Because it is seen as taboo, that will always be hanging over their heads. There is a higher possibility for abuse and taking advantage of someone - "If you stop treating me like this, I'll tell mom/dad/whoever about it"

    4. Even if the two attempt to not have sex or to not become pregnant, there is always that possibility.

    5. Because of the amount of trust involved, it is again more possible for abuse to occur.

    6. Because they live closely or will be forced to see each other, if the relationship goes 'bad' there is no way for either of them to heal.


    That's my take. I think it's necessary for the Bible and the judeo-christian law to consider incest to be unlawful and wrong, and against God.
     
  17. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Heya john313,

    I am not Christian so I cannot promise that my views are representative of Christianity. However, it is my personal belief that God wanted people to follow the messages which these prophets conveyed, not the prophets themselves.

    Also I ascribe to the Lutheran view on the matter of perfection. We are to aspire to be perfect, however, perfection can never be achieved, it is merely there to highlight that we are imperfect. This does not release us from out attempts to perfection, just merely of the guilt when we are unable to achieve this.

    Jesus was indeed the perfect human and this is certainly enough for people to follow his leadership, myself included. However, this was not what he wanted and is not what God wanted. God wants people to follow him and noone else as is clear from the 10 commandments. Jesus is also fully God just as he is fully human. It is merely an advertising tactic. God is playing to what he knows people are likely to follow when in fact that something is something else entirely.

    Hmmm I don't think I explained that very well but I hope it will suffice! I can try again if it doesn't.
     
  18. njcl

    njcl Active Member

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    i think the incest of the old testament times might have had something to do with that god did not want polluted bloodlines in the prophets ancestry,there was nobody to impregnate lots daughter,they were just leaving a city of despicable sin and my guess is that the surrounding towns were as bad so lot was the only viable choice
     
  19. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Incest was forbidden to them, but even if that was the case, then why does the bible say his daughters got him drunk first?
     
  20. njcl

    njcl Active Member

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    well would you like to have relations with your offspring,of course not hence his daughters getting him drunk so to lose some of his inhibitions and morality
     
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