In his image?

[Katzpur]

Here is some commentary you may find interesting on Genesis 1:26 and 27, I'm not going to type it all but here are some points...

Thanks. I appreciate your taking the time to post these.

Abarbanel: Let us make Man - This preamble indicated that Man was created with great deliberation and wisdom. G-d didn't say, "Let the earth bring forth" as He did with other creatures; instead, Man was brought into being with the deepest involvement of Divine Providence and wisdom.

I totally agree with you.

Targum Yonassan - "And G-d said to the ministering angels who had been created on the second day of creation, 'Let us make Man'."

Midrash - When Moses wrote the Torah and came to this verse, (Let us make), which is in the plural and implies that there is more than one Creater, he said: "Soverign of the Universe! Why do You thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?" "Write" G-d replied. "Whoever wishes to err will err... instead let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when He came to create Man He took counsel with the ministering angels"

I also believe that there was more than one Creator, but as a Christian I believe that Jesus Christ was literal Creator, acting under the guidance and direction of His Father. Mormons also believe that Adam (known premortally as Michael) assisted in the creation. As far as I know, you may be right about Him counseling with ministering angels (although I am virtually certain that you and I would have a different understanding of who these angels actually were).

Thus G-d taught that one should always consult others before embarking upon major new initatives, and He was notdeterred by the possibilities that some might choose to find sacriligious implication in the verse. This implation of G-ds response, "whoever wishes to err" is that one who sincerely seeks the truth will see it, one who looks for an excuse to blaspheme will find it.

Are you trying to say something to me specifically, or am I reading too much into this?

Rashi - In Our image - In Our mold, meaning that G-d had prepared the mold with which He would now shape Man.

Rashi - After Our likeness - With the power of understanding and intellect.

27...

Rashi - So G-d created - Just as Man is unique, so is the manner of his creation was unique and exalted. Throughout this chapter, G-d brought all things into being with an utterance, but He created Man with His own hands, as it were.

Ramban - In His image, in the image of G-d. - Among all living creatures, Man alone is endowed -- life His Creater -- with morality, reason and free will. He can know and love G-d and can hold spiritual communion with Him; and Man alone can guide his actions through reason. It is in this sense that the Torah describes Man as having been created in G-d's image and likeness.

I'll go along with this. But I just take it a step further.

R'Hirsch - Male and female. Although Eve was created later (2:21), she and Adam were created on the same day. Although all living creatures were created male and female, this fact is specified only in the case of human beings, to stress that both sexes were created by G-d in His likeness.

Yes, both men and women have a human form. No two people look exactly alike, and yet I believe we are all in the image of God.

Want to come up with a new interpretation? Fine, it's a free country. These are the commentaries that go back to Moses...

Yes, I know. And I see my beliefs as going back to Moses, as well.

 

[Meesheltx]

I would also like to ask that you give me one single solitary example of how you might use the word "image" in a sentence where it did not mean "the respresentation of physical qualities." I can't personally do so. In other words, I look in the mirror and see my image. My son is the "spitten image" of his dad. A person who looks well is said to be "the image of health." Even the word "imagine" forces you to picture something in your mind. I've asked this question before on many occasions and have never once seen anyone be able to give me an answer.

I don't know if an argument based on such details about a words usage holds any water when talking about the bible. It was written by a man's hand and translated by men...this word could have very easily been intended to be used only symbolically.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't know if an argument based on such details about a words usage holds any water when talking about the bible. It was written by a man's hand and translated by men...this word could have very easily been intended to be used only symbolically.

But why, specifically, do you believe it was? I mean there are many instances in the Bible where God is referred to as a man. In Exodus 33:11, for instance, we read, "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." To me, this verse almost shouts, "This really happened! It wasn't symbolic or figurative, folks!" I realize that most Christians believe it to be symbolic. What I'm trying to understand is why? What evidence is there to support that belief?

 

[steven876]

It is a shame that you people are either so ignorant, or perhaps it is my fault, that you do not posses the knowledge of knowing what G-D is.



There are books you can research for this and it may take you years (if you are not born to the right family...) to find them, but ask people who studied the true religion of G-D and you will hear the same if not very similar answers...



1. G-D does not have an image. (what so ever, especially not a physical or human one)

2. It is against G-D's commandment to give "HIM" any image.

3. G-D is not like your friend or (even) father, he is the "CAN NOT PUT IN ONE WORD" of this world. There should be the utmost respect when speaking about G-D.

4. G-D does not have any physical shape or form, it is against his commandment to say he does or to give him any. (or to combine him with any)

5. G-D is not a spirit or being, it is against his commandment to give him any.



to explain your question regarding the verse Genesis 1:27 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him”



The answer to this question is very long and many have wrote upon it.



In short it is easy to explain it with two simple facts (understandings).



1. You must understand the principal of free choice, the freedom to choose "yes" or "no" that us humans posses (G-D does not posses this). (he never needs to "choose") any "choice" he makes whether "yes" or "no" it is not a "choice" it is an action based on his G-Dly being which we can not understand. (like how he created the world, was not a choice, it was just done, without basis to what humans may or may not like, (I don’t like dogs) (when we make a salad we choose what to put in it (usually based on what we like)).



2. You must understand the principal of difference! There is a difference between black and white, it is a true difference, like the difference between night and day. Like reading this article more then once. (There is a difference every time you read it)



With these two understandings...the answer is simple...



A tree does not have "choice" it can not choose to grow or die. (it must be fed and taken care of)



An animal in fact does not "really" have "free choice". (he can choose on a fine level but usually done through human intervention), an animal hunts, he wont think twice whether or not it is a pregnant prey or what not, he will hunt her.



Humans differ from earth/trees/animals in this perspective that we can choose. We can choose from what’s right or what’s wrong, yet we also have instincts (which actually cause us to be considered animals in some ways).



And up the chain we go... Earth/Tree/Animals/Human - and above them all who created them all, G-D.



1. "In G-D's image" we are unique from animals and tree and earth in the fact that we can choose. Thus giving us a G-Dly image that they do not posses.



The word "image" is actually what gets you mixed up...It's literal sense, like a "picture" can never be related to that verse, the only proper meaning is in the "character".



The proper way to read it would be..



“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him”



"So God created man ---with--- his ---character--- in the ---character--- of God Created he him"



As one of the great interrupters wrote, thus ye shall strive to be like G-D....



As G-D is pitiful, thus ye should be.



As G-D is true, thus ye should be.



As g-d is forgiving, thus ye should be.



Like the rest of the thirteen characteristics of G-D.



(type, character, manner, nature; principle)



But you can not just go ahead and change the word "image" to character without carefully understanding...



What is an image???



This can only get deeper and deeper, but in the Hebrew verse of the bible the word "Tzelem" is used, which means "figure, image, icon, idol"



None of these interpretations would be correct to the word, the only proper interpretation would be character.



In image would say a lot about some one, thus the phrase a "picture" says a thousand words. But G-D does not have an "image" or a physical depiction of any sort, yet he does have characteristics, which is what he chose to give the man above his other creations, this giving man a "image" of G-D.

 

[greatcalgarian]

It is a shame that you people are either so ignorant, or perhaps it is my fault, that you do not posses the knowledge of knowing what G-D is.



There are books you can research for this and it may take you years (if you are not born to the right family...) to find them, but ask people who studied the true religion of G-D and you will hear the same if not very similar answers...

Please please please list the books that support all your subsequent statements, it would be very helpful to avoid us taking years to find them. And who are these people to ask?

If these books are available online, it will be a great help to me. Thanking you in anticipation.

 

[greatcalgarian]

I suspect Jesus had nipples, otherwise people might have commented. So draw your own conclusions from that.

So you support the idea that God has nipples?

 

[Deut 13:1]

Thanks. I appreciate your taking the time to post these.

No problem, there are a lot more, I just thought those pretained most to the discussion at hand. Although Rashi has a lot more notes that are truly amazing.

I totally agree with you.

Cool.

I also believe that there was more than one Creator, but as a Christian I believe that Jesus Christ was literal Creator, acting under the guidance and direction of His Father. Mormons also believe that Adam (known premortally as Michael) assisted in the creation. As far as I know, you may be right about Him counseling with ministering angels (although I am virtually certain that you and I would have a different understanding of who these angels actually were).

And you're more then free to come up with any interpretation you want. You're not a Jew, do/worship as you want. I do ask why though you don't follow the Noahite laws which were aimed for righteous gentiles like you claim to be?

Are you trying to say something to me specifically, or am I reading too much into this?

A little of both, the comment was meant to include your position as well as any other that clearly goes against the teachings of the Torah (Which includes the Oral law) as far I'm concerned. Something interesting to note is that Moses went up to get the 10 commandments and took 40 days and 40 nights, if he was just receiving the 10 commandments it would have took like 2 days, or even less, the thing is he was being taught the Oral Law and the explanations to the Torah. For example, the Schema commands us to bind a sign upon our arm and inbetween the eyes. This is a commandment, Jesus says NOTHING about this, and yet, no Christians I know even know what Tefillin is or even use it.

I'll go along with this. But I just take it a step further.

Don't take this the wrong way, but as a Torah student, I hardly think you're qualified to comment on the basics of Torah interpretation, not that I'm much better qualified. The Rebbi stated that every Jew should reach

Yes, both men and women have a human form. No two people look exactly alike, and yet I believe we are all in the image of God.

As I said, this is America and you're a non-Jew, you're more then free to do whatever you want and come up w/ any interpretations. If you're really interested in learning PM me your zip code, and I'll e-mail you the telephone number and the address and the name of the local Yesheva, you can go there and they will give you answers from books that you may have never heard of.

Yes, I know. And I see my beliefs as going back to Moses, as well.

There is a interesting concept that the holiness of people goes down as we go farther and farther away in time from the time of Moses. Hence why someone like the Rebbi, while he was the spiritual wise man of this century, if he came up with a new interpretation of something that contradicted something that Rashi or the Ramban or any other spiritual giant of the past said, he would immediately be ignored since Rashi and the Ramban were farther back in time, there spiritual holiness would have been greater. But yea, I hope you don't this as an insult, it's just that we don't really care what non-gentiles do with their interpretations of the Torah and documents. I mostly come here to read to just learn about stuff I would never ask my Rabbi about.

 

[Deut 13:1]

This can only get deeper and deeper, but in the Hebrew verse of the bible the word "Tzelem" is used, which means "figure, image, icon, idol"

None of these interpretations would be correct to the word, the only proper interpretation would be character.

I think it's a fine translation... and the Hebrew used in 1:27 is B'tzelem Elohim

Did you read anything I posted before you posted this long rant with huge spaces in between the sentances? I mean unless Rashi and Ramban are beneath your spiritual level of understanding... :biglaugh:

 

[Merlin]

So you support the idea that God has nipples?

Absolutely not. The concept that god has a human body is so ridiculous that I left that behind when I was about eight. It is such a silly idea that god has a human body, otherwise he would need to eat and drink and move His bowels and so on. It is just plain nonsense.

So what is He made off and what does He looked like? God knows!

 

[Merlin]

"image" of G-D.

What makes you write the word God as G-D.

 

[Merlin]

I hope you don't this as an insult, it's just that we don't really care what non-gentiles do with their interpretations of the Torah and documents. I mostly come here to read to just learn about stuff I would never ask my Rabbi about.

Does that mean you have switched off any personal logic about your religion. Whatever you are told, is correct no matter what it is. Is that what you believe?

 

[Merlin]

I would also like to ask that you give me one single solitary example of how you might use the word "image" in a sentence where it did not mean "the respresentation of physical qualities."

Of course it represents physical qualities, but not necessarily your own physical qualities. You wanted a sentence:-

"When I looked at it, it was my perfect image of a beautiful house" (but it does not look like me)

"I made a sculpture of my perfect image of a woman" (but she does not look like me)

When God created mankind 'in his own image', it is entirely possible it just means He made us exactly as God pictured humankind should look.

The concept that God has the physical body is ridiculous. Incidentally, if God is a physical body then it creates a few problems with the virgin birth story (and a few unsavoury images.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Does that mean you have switched off any personal logic about your religion. Whatever you are told, is correct no matter what it is. Is that what you believe?

No.

What makes you write the word God as G-D.

It's more of a sign of respect. As a gentile, you're free to do whatever you want with His name.

 

[Merlin]

No.

It's more of a sign of respect. As a gentile, you're free to do whatever you want with His name.

So are you. God doesn't want automatons. Surely, you are not going to create a God for yourself who is so petty that he will get angry about the use of three letters!

It is bad enough thinking he would care one little jot if you had a nice bacon sandwich, without adding to that image.

If there is a God (and I believe with all my heart that there is), and if he was even partially instrumental in creating several billion universes including our world, He is above all of these human petty restrictions.

 

[Deut 13:1]

So are you. God doesn't want automatons. Surely, you are not going to create a God for yourself who is so petty that he will get angry about the use of three letters!

What makes you think I created G-d?

It is bad enough thinking he would care one little jot if you had a nice bacon sandwich, without adding to that image.

In Judaism, you first do what G-d commands, and then figure out the reason.

If there is a God (and I believe with all my heart that there is), and if he was even partially instrumental in creating several billion universes including our world, He is above all of these human petty restrictions.

I'm happy for you... Really I am. As I said, you're a gentile and can come up with any interpretation you want, it's a free country.

Just something to think about, Jews believe in something called the Oral Law, it also came from Moses, word-for-word. Maybe you should read everything Moses had to say before you toss out the written scripture which without a basic understanding of the Oral law, is useless. It's the main problem I have with Christians, they insist it's right based on loose interpretations that ignore the Oral Law that would totally contradict their son of G-d theory. But yea, they're free to do so... It just always amazed me that they toss out half of what Moses had to say, but insist on the fact that I'm going to hell, which I already believe, so their words don't really mean anything.

 

[Merlin]

What makes you think I created G-d?

despite people's denials, we all create a God in our own image. In a detailed questionnaire about people's beliefs in God, everybody would have small variations, even those of the same denomination.

In Judaism, you first do what G-d commands, and then figure out the reason.

Actually, you do what ancient scriptures tell you. You only believe it is what God said. It may well be, but.................?

Maybe you should read everything Moses had to say before you toss out the written scripture

I am happy to state publicly that what was written about Moses is probably true (although nobody knows who he was). It might not be true, but I will accept it might be. I just happen to think that God has wanted the world to move on several times since then, and has given us new revelations.

I am not tribal in my religious thinking. If some miracle happened and some angelic vision told me that any religion in the world is a true one, I will be just as happy to follow that. My objective is to reach even the tiniest glimpse of communion with God. Incidentally, very few people on this site could say that. How do we do that? Isn't that the $64,000 question.

What is not needed to do that? That's much easier. I cannot believe He will care what we dress in, what we eat, what we drink, even how we write His name. If I would not get offended if anybody wrote my name wrongly, why on earth would God. Am I more well balanced? It is a ridiculous suggestion.

You are obviously doing the right thing. You are following your heart, and it is giving you religious satisfaction. You can do no more.

 

[Deut 13:1]

despite people's denials, we all create a God in our own image. In a detailed questionnaire about people's beliefs in God, everybody would have small variations, even those of the same denomination.

I guess it would depend on how you phrase the question, kind of like this...
Did it hurt when your dad raped you?

Well that questions ASSUMES it was your dad, if it wasn't, then someone might answer, "Yes it did hurt when I was raped", its a loaded question because it implies something, one could argue that it was the question that led the person to a different answer.

Actually, you do what ancient scriptures tell you. You only believe it is what God said. It may well be, but.................?

Actually scripture never said that, but keep guessing who did say that.

I am happy to state publicly that what was written about Moses is probably true (although nobody knows who he was). It might not be true, but I will accept it might be. I just happen to think that God has wanted the world to move on several times since then, and has given us new revelations.

Question, what does it mean when Hashem commands us to bind a sign on our arm and in between are eyes? Duet 6:4 Be sure to use scripture only to support your answer.

Question, when Moses commands Jews to do a Kosher slaughter, where in the bible does it tell you what or how to do a kosher slaughter? Be sure to use scripture only to support your answer.

I can go on and on, the fact is, you only understand the written scripture which is completely useless without the Oral law that explains it. Using scripture only is what I find idiotic.

I am not tribal in my religious thinking. If some miracle happened and some angelic vision told me that any religion in the world is a true one, I will be just as happy to follow that. My objective is to reach even the tiniest glimpse of communion with God. Incidentally, very few people on this site could say that. How do we do that? Isn't that the $64,000 question.

What makes you think I care what gentiles think of G-d? We have enough trouble with Jews who were didn't grow up in an observant house-hold.

What is not needed to do that? That's much easier. I cannot believe He will care what we dress in, what we eat, what we drink, even how we write His name. If I would not get offended if anybody wrote my name wrongly, why on earth would God. Am I more well balanced? It is a ridiculous suggestion.

Why must Hashem conform to your beliefs?

You are obviously doing the right thing. You are following your heart, and it is giving you religious satisfaction. You can do no more.

Sure I can.

 

[Merlin]

We have enough trouble with Jews who were didn't grow up in an observant house-hold.

what Concern is it of yours what other people do? Surely, if somebody has developed their religious ideas to move on, it does not cause you trouble. It is only a matter for them.

 

[Deut 13:1]

what Concern is it of yours what other people do? Surely, if somebody has developed their religious ideas to move on, it does not cause you trouble. It is only a matter for them.

What concern is it of yours how Jews handle Jewish matters? You don't see me demanding answers why Americans slaughtered Native Americans.

But, I'll play along, we don't force them to become observant, rather we try and reach out to them, I take it you had nothing to say on the rest of what I said?

 

[Katzpur]

Binyamin,

You know, I'm starting to feel as if you and I really aren't going to hit it off. I feel kind of bad about that, because I really don't know any Jewish people. I had kind of looked forward to being able to have a respectful dialogue with you, but I just have a feeling it's not going to happen. You seem to have such a chip on your shoulder and such an air of superiority about you. I'm at a loss to understand why. All I know is that I am not enjoying our discussion. There are a great many people on this board whose beliefs I don't share. There is really no need for me to continue to try to converse with someone who feels the need to talk down to me.

And you're more then free to come up with any interpretation you want. You're not a Jew, do/worship as you want. I do ask why though you don't follow the Noahite laws which were aimed for righteous gentiles like you claim to be?

See what I mean? I don't claim to define the doctrines of my faith. The thoughts I've shared are the interpretations of men I personally believe to be prophets of God, in exactly the same way that Noah, Moses, Abraham and Isaiah were prophets of God. I believe what they say because of who I believe they are, and because what they teach rings true to me.

A little of both, the comment was meant to include your position as well as any other that clearly goes against the teachings of the Torah (Which includes the Oral law) as far I'm concerned.

Okay, well thanks for clarifying. Now that I know you think I'm "looking for an excuse to blaspheme," I'm even more convinced that I don't want to bother talking to you any more. That's a highly arrogant attitide in my opinion. You don't know the first thing about my relationship to God and yet you feel entirely comfortable in passing judgment on me.

Kathryn