It's part of the definition of Panentheism; Creation is not a closed system.
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If you were shown irrefutable evidence that heaven or hell did not exist, would that interest you?
- Thread starter ChristineM
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Dave Watchman
Active Member
Wiki is your friend:
"According to Guinness World Records as of 1995, the Bible is the best-selling book of all time, with an estimated 5 billion copies sold and distributed.
List of best-selling books - Wikipedia
Or go with this guy, the little red book:
800 million sold.
Then there's always Anton Lavey's Satanic bible:
Probably some classic stuff in that.
Like how to do a Satanic orgy ritual.
But not the Scriptures that could be searched, for in those we would not find eternal life.
I imagine worse things than death.
God had to protect the oncoming generations.
From the reprobate mind conundrum.
Teach the children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.
But we have irrefutable pleas that, the last day is coming. People will be resurrected and judged.
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
The afterlife hypothesis is neither verifiable nor falsifiable; hence, there's no way to either prove or disprove such conjecture as correct theory. Therefore, the existence of heaven or hell will always be a belief accepted on Faith.
I've experienced an out of body experience, which compels me to believe in the possibility of me becoming a disembodied conscious being..
My OOBE happened when I was 13 years old. It happened immediately after I had a fainting spell from hyperventilating and holding my breath in such a way that I forced myself to pass out. When I woke up from this fainting spell, I was floating outside and above my body. While I was floating outside and above my body, everything in the room started spinning around me and then became brightly illuminated with a blinding white light which blinded me until I descended back into my body.
Have you ever experienced such an OOBE?
Would such an OOBE open your mind to the possibility of there being an afterlife where you'd be a disembodied conscious being?
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
Interestingly enough, according to ancient Eastern though, heaven is anything above the ground. Just read Genesis and you'll see the birds fly around in heaven. So, yes, heaven does exist. It's what holds all the air we breath, so it's a good thing.
As I'm sure you know, hell is mentioned in the Bible. However orthodox doctrine has gone a long way in obscuring it's true nature. Over times the meaning of words change. Also the meaning of words is affected by culture. Given that the scriptures were given to an Eastern culture several thousand of years ago, it is not surprising we in the modern West have screwed up the meaning of hell. To the ancient Easterner hell was simply a place where the dead go.
The scriptures do mention a lake of fire into which devil spirits and those who are sons of the devil will be thrown. However, it never suggests that the really evil folks who will be thrown into it will suffer for eternity. Wouldn't you expect someone who was thrown into a lake of fire to die pretty quick? Of course they would. That is why Revelation says they will die a "second death."
Rev 21:8,
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Now I know that most people think that after death we are not really dead (the same lie the devil told Eve in Genesis 3:4 and which most churches still believe), that we go somewhere and look down on our dear loved ones, pray for them, etc., but that is both totally illogical and non-scriptural. The scriptures align perfectly with easily observed phenomenon. If you've ever been to a funeral house, it doesn't take much to see the deceased no longer thinks about anything at all. Dead is dead. The scriptures say the dead do not have any consciousness whatsoever. They also say dead is dead.
Eccl 9:10,
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Ps 6:5,
For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
The upshot: the evil people who get thrown into the lake of fire will probably not even feel a thing. They'll die the second death and that's that.
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For me Bible is about truth, righteousness and love. Those would not change and I would still think they are good.
Wiki is your friend:
"According to Guinness World Records as of 1995, the Bible is the best-selling book of all time, with an estimated 5 billion copies sold and distributed.
List of best-selling books - Wikipedia
Or go with this guy, the little red book:
800 million sold.
Then there's always Anton Lavey's Satanic bible:
Probably some classic stuff in that.
Like how to do a Satanic orgy ritual.
But not the Scriptures that could be searched, for in those we would not find eternal life.
I imagine worse things than death.
God had to protect the oncoming generations.
From the reprobate mind conundrum.
Teach the children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by,
And feed them on your dreams
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.
I said top ten book lists or you can try top 50 or top 100.
And your source does say "sold and distributed " perhaps you missed the last word... Which is why i stated,more accurately, most published
Tell me when it happens
I haven't as such but have seemed to disconnect my mind from my body, the reason i will not talk about. But if people threaten me with hell i can laugh and say been there.
But my father has, he was mugged, hit across the head with a brick that broke his skull. He was in a coma for a month and died 3 times. On awaking he is adamant that the only reason he is back is because god is a lousy poker player.
The point being he was perminently wired to an eeg eeg which showed increased brain activity before he died. Not during the moments he was dead. So no, an oobe would not make much difference, evidence would
I have a more realistic definition of truth, i.e. the state of being true in accordance with fact or reality. I don't see belief an necessarily true or honest
As for righteousness, i can pretty much guarantee my moral justification is just as valid as anyone's, religious or not
And love, i love my children, i love my husband, i love my family and i love my friends. But books??? I like books, some very much but love them... No.
Dave Watchman
Active Member
I didn't think I missed it.
Another source estimates the Bible at 2.5 to 6 billion.
Even if you exclude the other translations and the distributed, and go for the lower 2.5 billion with a B, the Bible still will eclipse the next runner up.
I also find this list interesting in that the Book of Mormon and the Jehovah Witness Bible also make the top ten list.
And also that number 25 on the list is:
25. (tie) Steps to Christ, Ellen G. White. English, 1892, 60 million.
"The Huffington Post article actually named 16 books that have sold the most copies worldwide, noting that the Bible is the top seller in the world. In my version of the the list, the Bible remained the top seller in the world, with sales figures ranging (widely!) from 2.5 billion to over 6.0 billion copies. To get to 6 billion copies, you need to include the Bibles that have been given away, as well as all translations.
1. Quotations from Chairman Mao (The Little Red Book). Chinese, 1964, 800-900 million copies worldwide. A collection of quotations from Chinese Chairman Mao Zedong put together by the People’s Liberation Army. One source says 6.5 billion copies were printed and shipped, which would put the publication in competition with worldwide Bible distribution.
2. The Qur’an. Arabic. This ancient Islamic religious text has sold over 800 million copies.
3. (tie) Xinhua Dictionary (primary editor: Wei Jiangong). This Chinese dictionary, first published in 1957, has sold over 400 million copies.
3. (tie)Chairman Mao’s Poems, Mao Zedong. First published in China in 1966, 400 milion copies in print.
5. Selected Articles of Mao Zedong, first published in China in 1966, 252.5 million copies.
6. A Tale of Two Cities, Charles Dickens. English, 1859, 200 million copies.
7. (tie) Scouting for Boys: A Handbook for Instruction in Good Citizenship, Robert Baden-Powell. English, 1908, 150 million copies.
7. (tie) The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien. This cult classic by an Oxford professor was published in 1954-1955 and has sold 150 million copies worldwide.
7. (tie) The Book of Mormon, multiple authors, translated by Joseph Smith, Jr. Religious text published in 1830, over 150 million copies worldwide.
10. (tie) The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Jehovah’s Witnesses/Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York. Published in English in 1968, 107 million copies.
1. Quotations from Chairman Mao (The Little Red Book). Chinese, 1964, 800-900 million copies worldwide. A collection of quotations from Chinese Chairman Mao Zedong put together by the People’s Liberation Army. One source says 6.5 billion copies were printed and shipped, which would put the publication in competition with worldwide Bible distribution.
2. The Qur’an. Arabic. This ancient Islamic religious text has sold over 800 million copies.
3. (tie) Xinhua Dictionary (primary editor: Wei Jiangong). This Chinese dictionary, first published in 1957, has sold over 400 million copies.
3. (tie)Chairman Mao’s Poems, Mao Zedong. First published in China in 1966, 400 milion copies in print.
5. Selected Articles of Mao Zedong, first published in China in 1966, 252.5 million copies.
6. A Tale of Two Cities, Charles Dickens. English, 1859, 200 million copies.
7. (tie) Scouting for Boys: A Handbook for Instruction in Good Citizenship, Robert Baden-Powell. English, 1908, 150 million copies.
7. (tie) The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien. This cult classic by an Oxford professor was published in 1954-1955 and has sold 150 million copies worldwide.
7. (tie) The Book of Mormon, multiple authors, translated by Joseph Smith, Jr. Religious text published in 1830, over 150 million copies worldwide.
10. (tie) The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Jehovah’s Witnesses/Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York. Published in English in 1968, 107 million copies.
The Bible vs. Mao: A "Best Guess" of the Top 25 Bestselling Books of All Time - Publishing Perspectives
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Yep.
Not just A book.
This Book:
The planet's number one best selling Book.
The Word of God.
(The Atheists must wonder about that)
I have too much already.
My cup has a convex meniscus,
And it runneth over.
And He arranged to have His own Son killed on our behalf.
His ways are higher than our ways.
Have no fear of those who can kill the body.
"And I say to you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after this there is nothing more for them to do." "But I will show you whom you should fear: that one who after he kills is authorized to cast into Gehenna; yes I say to you, be afraid of this one - Luke 12:4
God knows He can bring us back.
We do not grieve as others do who have no hope.
We know that God, through Christ Jesus, will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep.
Too bad the book isn't perfect. Most atheists were Christians. Hey, believe what you want. I will never go back to it, except maybe to the Christian Left. They are at least like Jesus.
And still it's quantity printed, not quantity sold?
Dave Watchman
Active Member
The Bible is still the most POPULAR book on the planet.
It's not about which book made the most money.
It's not like a box office take.
It's like the guy in the article said:
PLEASE NOTE: This list is not as much a measure of how many copies have sold, but a measure of book’s popularity. It’s also not a suggestion of literary merit. Most scholars agree that the greatest works of world literature were written by Homer, Shakespeare, Cervantes and Goethe. None of their works made the top-25 list.
The Bible vs. Mao: A "Best Guess" of the Top 25 Bestselling Books of All Time - Publishing Perspectives
The Bible is the most printed and most popular book on the planet.The Bible vs. Mao: A "Best Guess" of the Top 25 Bestselling Books of All Time - Publishing Perspectives
Dreadful sorry Clementine.
You staited most sold, several times
I told you it was the most published right from the start of your mistaken big up so don't be sorry
Dave Watchman
Active Member
You'll go back.
I'm sure you'll be fine Ms Druid.
You and your scull headed girlfriend.
Something is bound to happen suddenly.
And the two groups of people will take sides.
Those who call out on the name of the Lord, shall be saved.
Remember 911.
In the news all day.
"God help us.
"Dear Lord help us.
But the others will remain in a state of rebellion.
They'll know that the God of the Bible has come back, but they will not call out for help.
They will curse the God of heaven for their predicament.
For their pain and their sores.
"People gnawed their tongues in anguish and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds. - Revelation 16:11
"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.- Joel 2:32
"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.- Joel 2:32
So you are saying the universe is not closed?
Maybe you should inform the Nobel institutions, could be a prize in it for you.
Also in the news, "religious attack destroys the twin towers" so I wouldn't be so cocky about that
Btw, you may find this educational rather than ignorantly calling names
Your avatar.
Dave Watchman
Active Member
I say it still is.
It's the most published.
It's the most printed.
It's the most sold book on the planet.
Entire Christian Book stores are dedicated to it's sale.
The country where I'm from even has a Bible Belt.
There's never been, or going to be, another phenomena like that again.
The #1 best seller can be found in that lower range from 2.5 to 6 Billion Books.
Even the 2.5 billion beats the next runner up, the Chairman Mao Book.
And i seriously doubt that the Chairman Mao book legitimately earned it's place on the list.
I'm sure there was some "political" motivation in there somewhere in getting that little red book out into the hands of every citizen.
No. My statement was refuting @fools argument. That's all. it wasn't intended to be stated as fact.
( @Fool please correct me if I'm wrong )
Here's the refutation:
@Fool is, among other things, a Hermetic Qabahlist ( Hermetic Qabalah - Wikipedia ).
This belief system implies panentheism. technically it describes Creation as ongoing; similar to a movie being played on a screen. If at any point God decides to stop the process of creating, all of existence ceases to be. That's part of the Hermetic Qabalah belief system. That's why i can say definitively that @Fool cannot claim the laws of thermodynamics in a debate. In Hermetic Qabalah, Creation is not a closed system. Energy is literally pouring into it at every moment continuously.
The contradiction was probably just an oversight, on fool's part. I doubt it was an intentional blunder. But, doing so contradicts an important concept in @fools belief system. And so I thought it was important to point it out.
a similar example would be if an atheist claims that "God did it" as evidence in a debate. That also would need an explanation if the argument was to remain valid. If that sounds .. ahem ... far fetched... that's the point.
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