Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Anyone who seeks "the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Seek and ye shall find.
Well and good. It's just important to note that the promise is not to just any old person regardless of direction in life.
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If there's a god - why isn't it obvious?
- Thread starter Sidon
- Start date
Well and good. It's just important to note that the promise is not to just any old person regardless of direction in life.
There is a difference between 'punishment' and hell for all eternity.
2nd Thessalonians 1:9 equates being punished with: everlasting destruction.
Does hell (gravedom) last for all eternity? No, according to Rev 20:13,14.
Please notice in verse 13 that hell delivers up the dead.
Then it is emptied-out hell along with death that both of them die a symbolic 'second death' or die out of existence. That is why Rev (21:4) can say there will be no more death. Our last enemy 'death' is brought to nothing.
-1 Cor 15:26
Please notice the punishment for Satan at Hebrews (2:14 b).
Satan is destroyed.
Those of Psalm (92:7) are also destroyed or annihilated.
However, what is unique for our day is the separating work that Jesus will be doing at Matthew 25:32,40. Those people of verse 32 are alive or living at the time Jesus separates the people on earth. The ones on his left hand of disfavor according to verse 46 go into everlasting punishment.
The punishment of 2nd Th. 1:9 which is: everlasting destruction.
Whereas, those on Jesus right hand of favor are the righteous ones that go into everlasting life. In other words, those upright people keep living,
or go right on living right into Jesus peaceful thousand-year reign over earth.
Proverbs 2:21; John 3:16
Acts (17:27,30) says everyone of us, and all men everywhere
Why couldn't they just be rules we learned over the centuries by trial and error? We likely found out pretty fast what worked for survival and what didn't. I don't understand why a god needs to be involved in that equation.
So just to clarify, you don't believe in hell? There is salvation no matter what religion or non religion?
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Because that would make morality a matter of mere prudence. But when we talk about morality, we generally mean something stronger than that. We generally mean that we OUGHT NOT to murder, not just that we SHOULDN'T murder because there might be some nasty consequences. Murder is wrong even if we can get away with it. At least that's the intuition. Taking a Creator out of it, this intuition must be admitted false. I just find that intuition counterintuitive.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Keep track of which promise is at issue.
dust1n
Zindīq
If you mean god is 'logically' valid despite our attitudes, I would say god is not 'logically' valid' despite any evidence of his existence... mainly because their isn't any.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Modify "valid" any way you like. You're still using the word wrongly. So if you'll excuse me, I'm going to make a brief excursis into logic so we can at least be using the same language. For the next few paragraphs, I may come off as a bit "lecturing", and for that I apologize. But you are making some very basic logical errors, and the conversations you get into will benefit from a bit more precision.
The word "valid" applies to arguments, not to beliefs. Thus a belief in God's (non-)existence cannot be valid or invalid. Nor can scientific beliefs be valid or invalid. Validity has to do with the logical relationship between the premises of an argument and its conclusion. To say that an argument is valid is to say that the premises logically entail the conclusion; in other words, that the conclusion follows from the premises. It's not possible for the conclusion not to be true if the premises are true. To say that an argument is not valid is to say that the conclusion does not follow logically from the premises. That is, it is possible for all the premises to be true, yet the conclusion be false. In other words, a complaint about validity is a complaint about the argument's form, not its content.
Example: The following argument (affirming the antecedent) is valid because the conclusion follows from the premises:
(1) If A is true, then B is true.
(2) A is true.
(3) Therefore, B is true.
The following argument (affirming the consequent) is invalid because the premises (1) and (2) could both be true yet the conclusion (3) be false:
(1) If A is true, then B is true.
(2) B is true.
(3) Therefore, A is false.
There is another property, cogency. This again is a property of arguments, not beliefs. Beliefs in God's (non-)existence cannot be cogent or not cogent. An argument is cogent if its premises strongly support the conclusion. That is, the conclusion doesn't follow by force of logic but rather is highly probable with respect to the premises. Forensic arguments (e.g., the butler did it) are usually of this type. We convict criminals not because arguments for their guilt are logically valid but because they are cogent. The evidence strongly indicates the truth of the conclusion "he's guilty." If we say that an argument isn't cogent, we are saying that the evidence is "weak" or that the conclusion isn't probable on the basis of the premises (or "evidence") presented. That is, it's possible to admit the evidence yet question the probability of the conclusion.
So to say that there is "no evidence" for God's existence is simply a mistake. Believers adduce evidence all the time. They appeal to their experience, to arguments of various kinds (such as the classical arguments from the origin of the universe or from design in the universe). Even if you disagree with the conclusion of these theistic arguments, these arguments do involve evidence. There is positive evidence favouring these arguments. A more precise (and logically appropriate) complaint would be to argue that the arguments are not very cogent. When you say that a believer's experience "isn't evidence" for the existence of God, you're simply wrong. It's much more precise (and accurate, and philosophically astute) to say that the believer's experience doesn't make God's existence very probable, that the believer's experience can be explained in other ways. But even if you argue this, the believer's experience is still evidence. It's just that you have a better explanation for the evidence.
In short, quipping that there is no evidence for God's existence is misleading to the point of being false. It's lazy and imprecise. And it probably is compensation for not actually knowing or understanding the issues involved in the debate (quite apart from the logical issues I've raised in this post).
First, shouldn't we consider what Jesus believed hell to be?
According to Acts (2:27,31); Psalm (16:10) Jesus was in hell. [sheol/hades]
What did Jesus think his condition would be while in hell, but that according to Jesus words at John (11:11-14) Jesus believed he would be in a deep sleep-like condition until God resurrected him.
Jesus even by age 12 was familiar with the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Jesus would have know the Psalms such as:
6:5 that in death there is no remembrance
13:3 the dead sleep the sleep of death
115:17 the dead do not praise God
146:4 at death thoughts or thinking perishes
Jesus would have also been familiar with the writings of King Solomon,
who was known for his God-given wisdom. Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 that the dead know nothing.
The word cemetery means 'sleeping place', and since Jesus thought he would be in a deep sleep-like state while buried in hell that make hell mankind's common grave.
'Gehenna' often translated hellfire is symbolic of destruction because Gehenna was a garbage dump where things were destroyed and not kept burning alive forever.
Daniel helps us see 'salvation' (12:2,13). Please note that Daniel mentions "many" [not all] that sleep in the dust of the ground will wake up or awaken from death's sleep. [Jesus being the first -1st Cor 15:20,23]. But as Daniel (12:13) mentions that Daniel would Not stand up in the resurrection until the end of the days. Or the end of the last days of badness on earth before Jesus begins his 1000-year peaceful rule over earth. Rev 20:4 B.
"Many" are also mentioned at Matthew 20:28 B because although Jesus died for all, it is not all that will respond. Such as: those of Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6.
So unless a person has committed the unforgivable sin, Romans 6:7 applies.
'Death' (Rom 6:23) is the price tag that is stamped "Paid In Full" for committed sins. Freed or acquitted does not mean innocent, but just like a governor pardons someone means the charges no longer stick.
Acts (2:34) informs us King David did Not ascend to heaven. That would put David still asleep in the dust of the ground awaiting a resurrection. Acts 24:15.
Both David and Daniel were looking forward to an earthly resurrection.
All those that died before Jesus (Matt 11:11) have an earthly hope of eternal life on earth. After God resurrected Jesus to spirit or heavenly life, then the way, or salvation, was open for eternal heavenly life for those Christians that will rule with Jesus in the heavens as Rev. 5:9,10 shows.
Matthew 25:32,40 brings us up to our day. Please notice that the sheep-like people are alive or living at that time. Those righteous ones remain alive and are granted eternal life, or will continue to live, or be saved alive, right into Jesus 1000-year rule over earth.
Destruction awaits the goat-like ones because 2nd Thess 1:9 equates punishment (Matt 25:46) with destruction.
Psalm 92:7; 37:11,29,38; Proverbs 2:21,22; 10:30
Jesus 'thousand-year day' is also a Judgment day of one-thousand years in length. All those asleep in gravedom, or the common grave of mankind, will awaken because please notice Rev (20:13,14) informs us that 'all' in hell (sheol/hades) are 'delivered up' [resurrected] from hell the common grave. Please also notice that once hell is emptied out then both emptied-out hell and death die a symbolic second death of no return.
That is why Rev (21:4) can now say, at that time, there is no more death. -1st Cor 15:26.
This means that the 'many' resurrected dead will be judged on what they do after [not before] they are resurrected. Those of Matt 12:32; Heb 6:4-6 are Not included in the 'many' that gain salvation, or gain everlasting life, either in the heavens or when Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
