If there is the devil, why did God create him?

[Tiberius]

When Satan approached Eve (through the speech of the serpent), he actually challenged the rightfulness and righteousness of Jehovah’s sovereignty. He intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman; he also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Additionally, Satan made her believe she would be free and independent of God, becoming like God. By this means this wicked spirit creature raised himself higher than God in Eve’s eyes, and Satan became her god, even though Eve, at the time, apparently did not know the identity of the one misleading her.

And who was right?

Satan intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman, you said. And he was right. God was withholding the knowledge of Good and Evil, which they only got by eating the fruit.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And he was right, they didn't die as God said, and their eyes were opened, and they did know good from evil. The snake only ever told them the truth, if the Bible is to be believed.

Satan also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Again, Satan was right. God said they would die on the very day they ate from the tree. If they ate from the tree, they'd be dead on that very day. Did this happen? No, they lived for several hundred years afterwards. You can try to get around this, but the only way to do that is to make assumptions about what the Bible says.

 

[lilithu]

And you are qualified to judge me why?

The same reason you are qualified. Are you claiming to not be making any judgements? Whether we were right or wrong, it's not like it was a moral judgment, so why take offense?

I can assure you that I am an atheist. And I'll thank both of you to not judge me like that. I was pointing out that IF God exists he is to blame. I was merely structuring my argument in a way so as to only deal with the things that theists believe.

For the gazillionth time, theist and Christian are not synonymous. And not all Christians believe in the same God that you say you don't believe in.

It did occur to me that you were making an "If God exists, then..." argument. The thing is, "If God exists then he is to blame" is different from "*I* blame God."

 

[Real Sorceror]

The same reason you are qualified. Are you claiming to not be making any judgements? Whether we were right or wrong, it's not like it was a moral judgment, so why take offense?

For the gazillionth time, theist and Christian are not synonymous. And not all Christians believe in the same God that you say you don't believe in.

It did occur to me that you were making an "If God exists, then..." argument. The thing is, "If God exists then he is to blame" is different from "*I* blame God."

Right. What she said.

 

[nutshell]

And who was right?

Satan intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman, you said. And he was right. God was withholding the knowledge of Good and Evil, which they only got by eating the fruit.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And he was right, they didn't die as God said, and their eyes were opened, and they did know good from evil. The snake only ever told them the truth, if the Bible is to be believed.

Satan also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Again, Satan was right. God said they would die on the very day they ate from the tree. If they ate from the tree, they'd be dead on that very day. Did this happen? No, they lived for several hundred years afterwards. You can try to get around this, but the only way to do that is to make assumptions about what the Bible says.

As always, Satan was using have truths to tempt Eve. When they partook of the fruit they spiritually died on that day and they began to die physically (meaning they became mortal).

I, of course, have a much different interpretation of this story than mainstream Christianity.

 

[logician]

The answer is simple, there is no god or devil.

 

[Genna]

The answer is simple, there is no god or devil.

Can you prove factually and not by philosophical assertions or suppositions that there truly is no God or a Devil?

 

[Toblerone2]

First post, lets see what this looks like....
Anyway, I did skip some of the 16 pages of discussion on this topic ( the middle part mostly ). There is a good discussion on the "argument from evil" (AE) on the infidels.org site which is used by many Atheists / Agnostics, and to which I think this discussion refers. It does not attempt to deal with origins or purpose of Satan, it is more general. I would postulate that you can have lots of evil in the universe even in the absence of Satan, so he is uncessesary to the larger discussion.

Doh!! I can't post links yet, but its on the infidels.org site, or just search on "argument from evil by nicholas Tattersall."

14 more posts to go....

 

[Real Sorceror]

Welcome Toblerone!
Nice first post. I especially like the point you made that evil still exist with or without Satan.

 

[Toblerone2]

Thanks Sorcerer! Ouch, that's a really loud signature line, I'll work to tone it down, no need to shout....

 

[Paraprakrti]

I see. Well, I understand his "omniscience" (for those who insist on using that particular word) a little differently than you do. I definitely don't think God gets any pleasure over anyone's suffering. But I do believe that where there is agency, there is accountability. Maybe that's where we differ.

Whatever word you use, God has all-knowledge. Also, God is above time (eternal). Therefore God's knowledge is not limited to time. I have heard some people say that God knows everything past and present but not the future. That is incorrect. The eternal God knows ALL, regardless of relative time.

 

[Real Sorceror]

Whatever word you use, God has all-knowledge. Also, God is above time (eternal). Therefore God's knowledge is not limited to time. I have heard some people say that God knows everything past and present but not the future. That is incorrect. The eternal God knows ALL, regardless of relative time.

How does being eternal make you above time? Just becuase you have always existed and will always exist does not mean you don't feel the passing of time. How does it allow you to know the future?

 

[Tiberius]

The same reason you are qualified. Are you claiming to not be making any judgements? Whether we were right or wrong, it's not like it was a moral judgment, so why take offense?

I never said I knew what anyone's religious beliefs were better than that person themselves.

For the gazillionth time, theist and Christian are not synonymous. And not all Christians believe in the same God that you say you don't believe in.

Fine, then just read "Christian" where I wrote "Theist" and you'll be fine. You know perfectly well what I meant, don't harp on the little details like that.

It did occur to me that you were making an "If God exists, then..." argument. The thing is, "If God exists then he is to blame" is different from "*I* blame God."

Again, you knew very well what I meant.

When they partook of the fruit they spiritually died on that day and they began to die physically (meaning they became mortal).

If they were immortal before that day, why did they have different genders? Did they just shag for fun? And if so, why is doing it for fun such a big deal these days?

 

[Paraprakrti]

How does being eternal make you above time? Just becuase you have always existed and will always exist does not mean you don't feel the passing of time. How does it allow you to know the future?

Relative time is defined by material activities. God existed before there was a material world and therefore is above relative time. Now, we can say that there is absolute time and that is God's eternal time. But we also have information that God is all-knowing. Being in absolute time, God knows all absolute. He is not confined to relative time - past, present or future.

I am also eternal, but I am currently conditioned by the material world. Therefore I do not know the future. Matter of fact, I hardly know the past or the present. So what I didn't specify in my last post was that God is both eternal and infallible - He never falls into material conditioning.

 

[mosaic2]

God did not create satan, He created angels who fell into sin and became evil.

 

[may]

And who was right?

Satan intimated that God was unrightfully withholding something from the woman, you said. And he was right. God was withholding the knowledge of Good and Evil, which they only got by eating the fruit.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And he was right, they didn't die as God said, and their eyes were opened, and they did know good from evil. The snake only ever told them the truth, if the Bible is to be believed.

Satan also declared that God was a liar in saying that she would die if she ate the forbidden fruit. Again, Satan was right. God said they would die on the very day they ate from the tree. If they ate from the tree, they'd be dead on that very day. Did this happen? No, they lived for several hundred years afterwards. You can try to get around this, but the only way to do that is to make assumptions about what the Bible says.

so man lives for ever and does not die.......... i dont think he does we are all in a dying state just as romans 5;12 tells us
That is why, just as through one man(Adam) sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned— romans 5;12yes from that day on we were in a dying state , before Adam and eve sinned they had the chance to carry on living forever . so it seems that The Almighty was right all along.

(Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."
​

(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death is through a man, (Adam)resurrection of the dead is also through a man.(Jesus)

 

[Paraprakrti]

God did not create satan, He created angels who fell into sin and became evil.

But God, having all and absolute knowledge, knew that Lucifer would fall. So how do you answer that?

 

[Tiberius]

May, read my post again. I said that man was in an undying and immortal state BEFORE he ate from the tree, according to the Bible.

 

[Katzpur]

If they were immortal before that day, why did they have different genders?

You lost me here. How does the presence or absence of gender figure into immortality, anyway?

 

[may]

May, read my post again. I said that man was in an undying and immortal state BEFORE he ate from the tree, according to the Bible.

it seems that recognizing who the rightful ruler is , will lead to everlasting life . but satan has brought up the issue of who is the universal sovreign. and this issue has to be proved once and for all ,and it is being proved that satan is not the rightful ruler he is just an opposser of God. and a slanderer of God so doing things Gods way will make the heart of God rejoice, and he can make an answer to the one(satan) that is taunting him proverbs 27;11
Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.

 

[Tiberius]

You lost me here. How does the presence or absence of gender figure into immortality, anyway?

it doesn't. Immortal beings don't have the need to reproduce. There's nothing to reduce the population and create a need for offspring. And if an immortal being did reproduce, then the population would very quickly overwhelm the available environment. Can you imagine if ever human who has ever lived was still alive? What would the world's population be?

The only reason for gender is for sex, and there are only to reasons for sex; reproduction and fun. When Adam and Eve were immortal, they had no need for reproduction, as explained above, which leaves just the fun reason for sex.

On a side note, the fact that Adam was created with gender from the start kinda indicates that God knew he'd create Eve as well. So why did he wait and then make the animals as companions for Adam before Eve?

it seems that recognizing who the rightful ruler is , will lead to everlasting life . but satan has brought up the issue of who is the universal sovreign. and this issue has to be proved once and for all ,and it is being proved that satan is not the rightful ruler he is just an opposser of God. and a slanderer of God

And how did the Snake slander God in the Garden of Eden?