"If there is a hell, there can be no heaven"

[Runlikethewind]

I'll start a new thread in the "one on one" debate forum, but it will probably be as much a discussion as a debate. I'm sure we'll have some disagreements, but I think we'll find a lot of common ground and it will be interesting to learn about one another's beliefs. I'll start it tomorrow and PM you when it's there.

Sweet! Sounds good to me I look forward to it.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

no, on the rare occasion someone doesnt want to go to heaven, he could send them.......where ever it is they do want to go, which is ultimately heaven anyway, because heaven is supposed to be 'the perfect place and situation that best meets your desire'.

It's just that I've spoken to several people who have told me quite unequivocally, "If there is such a thing as Heaven, I want nothing to do with it. Bring on Hell! One big party! etc etc" (paraphrased, but that's the jist). It seems like, according to your argument, that God is somehow to blame if He grants their request.
Also, I don't know of anywhere in the Bible, the Creeds, etc etc, that I have ever read, where Heaven has been described as a place and/or situation that meets a person's present desire. People desire a lot of things that aren't found in heaven, at least in the Christian context, and people's desires change.

 

[Atheos]

God shouldn't just reward the believers. Anybody can believe in God. But being a good person should be the deciding factor.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

>If there is a hell, there can be no Heaven.

Illogical.

The more so given the Baha'i definition of these terms (which matches that of some Christian groups, BTW):

Heaven is spiritual nearness to God (not a place).

Hell is spiritual separation from God (not a place).

Simple as that, and there is clearly no problem in both nearness and separation existing!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[The Seeker]

Suppose you don't end up in either heaven or hell when you die, but in some intermediate state? Would you reconsider?

I don't believe in an afterlife, but if there is one, I'll only be happy if I'm reunited with my loved ones. Whether that's heaven, hell or someplace else wouldn't matter to me.

Hopefully you are wrong about belief in God being a prerequisite for getting into heaven. I tend to think that it is not, that getting into heaven is a gift from God and He can give it to anyone He wants whether they believe in Him or not. Of course it helps if you do believe in Him.

According to the Bible, belief in Jesus and accepting him as your savior is a prerequisite to getting into heaven. I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, but I do believe that he was a very wise philosopher. Maybe God will give me some brownie points for that.

 

[uumckk16]

The beauty and utter joy of being with God will flush out everything else.

Even your conscience? Or, as Katzpur said, your compassion?

Edit: Oops, you already responded to this:

Not a lack of compassion, just an extreme excess of joyfulness. Perhaps I worded it incorrectly.

I believe that when we get to Heaven, we'll be so happy that we're with God, that we'll "forget" in a sense that we have loved ones in Hell. Maybe that is a wrong view, but it is what I've always thought.

I get what you're saying, but I disagree. IMO, forgetting that we have loved ones in hell does indicate a loss of compassion...

I'll give another example. Not exactly adequate, but hey. A few summers ago I was separated from the same loved one I mentioned earlier for a period of 10.5 weeks (doesn't sound very long, but it sure felt like it). I was visiting a place I love very much, where I have friends and family and it's so peaceful and beautiful. Yet despite the fact that I was so happy there, I could not be truly happy without him there. This is, of course, a different scenario than Heaven/Hell; I knew I would see him again and I knew he wasn't suffering (which I expect would increase my desire to see him in the case of Heaven), and, to be fair, [presumably] the joy of this place is nothing compared to Heaven. Yet still...even if I was in Heaven, I think I would have an ethical duty to be upset about the fact that people I love, good people, were suffering in Hell.

At any rate, I won't worry too much. If conservative Christians are right, this loved one will be saved and I'll be the one in Hell.

When my wife passed away, several people told me that "she's in a better place now". I always wondered how people could think she was in a better place if she was no longer with her friends and family. If anything she probably feels like she's in hell. Heaven can only be a wonderful place if everyone you loved on Earth is there.

I'm sorry to hear about it

I think that actually kind of goes with the example I gave just a moment ago...assuming Heaven exists and she's there (not implying that she's in hell - I don't believe that at all - I'm simply allowing for the possibility of reincarnation) it probably doesn't truly feel like Heaven to her. But I don't think it would feel like hell...I think she'd probably just be very impatient to be with all of her loved ones again.

Although, as I was thinking about this...a truly compassionate person wouldn't really feel like they were in Heaven until everyone was. In other words, they'd get to Heaven...wait for their friends, family, loved ones...then they'd remember an acquaintance and say, hm, I hope he gets to come here...and then they'd remember all the people they disliked and say, gee, they really weren't so bad, I hope they make it...and then they'd remember that they have descendants and hope they all make it, too...pretty soon they wouldn't be satisfied until everyone was in Heaven.

At least, that seems like the compassionate thing to me. And God is presumably far more compassionate than any of us. So maybe God won't rest until we're all saved...

Or maybe I'm just babbling

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe in an afterlife, but if there is one, I'll only be happy if I'm reunited with my loved ones. Whether that's heaven, hell or someplace else wouldn't matter to me. According to the Bible, belief in Jesus and accepting him as your savior is a prerequisite to getting into heaven. I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, but I do believe that he was a very wise philosopher. Maybe God will give me some brownie points for that.

I think He's got some great surprises in store for you. I wish I could be a fly on the wall of heaven to watch when you get there!

 

[Sonic247]

According to Mormon theology wouldn't he be in a diffrent level like the terrerstrial or something?

 

[Katzpur]

According to Mormon theology wouldn't he be in a diffrent level like the terrerstrial or something?

According to Mormon theology, it's not going to be over for a long time yet. In other words, the decision is not yet made. Regardless of the "level," it beats Hell all to heck!

 

[Sonic247]

I mean if he never joined the Mormon church. And then there might be a possibility of moving up once he was there.

 

[Katzpur]

I mean if he never joined the Mormon church. And then there might be a possibility of moving up once he was there.

I don't really think there's going to be a "Mormon Church" in the Spirit World. There will just be Jesus Christ's Church. People for whom a belief in God just didn't ring true in this life may see things differently once they're no longer part of this world.

 

[Sonic247]

I suppose, even in the book of Mormon it sounds pretty bad:

O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he adelivereth his saints from that bawful monster the devil, and death, and chell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

 

[Katzpur]

I suppose, even in the book of Mormon it sounds pretty bad:

O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he adelivereth his saints from that bawful monster the devil, and death, and chell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Uh... I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm sure Hell's going to be hell, alright.

 

[Sonic247]

Just like you said: the judgement didn't happen yet. You don't know who will be in heaven and who won't. For me the judgement happened when I believed in Jesus and recieved eternal life (a present possesion with a future promise.)

 

[Katzpur]

Just like you said: the judgement didn't happen yet. You don't know who will be in heaven and who won't.

Do you?

For me the judgement happened when I believed in Jesus and recieved eternal life (a present possesion with a future promise.)

So you won't stand before God at the Last Judgment described in Revelation?

 

[Sonic247]

Of course not, but you said you would see him in heaven but you don't know if you will or not.

Which one? What verse?

 

[Katzpur]

Of course not, but you said you would see him in heaven but you don't know if you will or not.

I stand corrected. I don't know. I believe.

Which one? What verse?

Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Sonic247]

Maybe I'm not an expert in eschatalogy. I was just saying like how it says in Rom. 8:30- "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

So even if I'm judged I am already justified. An interesting thing is all the verbs are in the past (aorist) tense even glorified which didn't happen yet. It just goes to show that in God's eyes we are already glorified.

 

[Katzpur]

So even if I'm judged I am already justified.

Wow, aren't you lucky!

 

[Sonic247]

It's what the Bible says. Eternal life is not something we recieve after this one.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

have, not will have

exete- present active indicative, 2nd person plural from: exo- ye are having (I'm learning Greek)
(also keep in mind that if it is eternal and someone loses it then it never really was eternal because it had an end.)