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If Quran claimed Mohammad (s) is "son" of Jesus (a).

If Quran claimed Mohammad (s) was son of Jesus (a), would that make sense?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • No

    Votes: 10 76.9%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Haven't thought about it

    Votes: 2 15.4%

  • Total voters
    13

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see Allah makes it simple and it is us that complicates it Link.

By their fruits and prophecies we shall know them. By this standard, the Messengers of Allah are made manifest.

It is thus very obvious why they are not going to be Athiest.

Regards Tony
I agree it's obvious. But I also find it obvious that God when he says final/seal he means it, and doesn't mean the all Prophets are all Prophets type meaning and hence Mohammad (s) is the final one in that sense sort of thing, but really means it for what it means. Also, that the day of judgment refers to the hereafter when things will be shown to every soul and does not refer to a coming of a Prophet.

I'm just saying, by standards that God can deceive us and change his norms, as @InvestigateTruth always emphasizes on, to be consistent, you would have to accept the Maitreya.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree it's obvious. But I also find it obvious that God when he says final/seal he means it, and doesn't mean the all Prophets are all Prophets type meaning and hence Mohammad (s) is the final one in that sense sort of thing, but really means it for what it means. Also, that the day of judgment refers to the hereafter when things will be shown to every soul and does not refer to a coming of a Prophet.

I'm just saying, by standards that God can deceive us and change his norms, as @InvestigateTruth always emphasizes on, to be consistent, you would have to accept the Maitreya.
That is the Quandary link. Only the Messengers can break the Seals.

To understand this, I see we really need to understand what seals were used for in the time of Jesus and Muhammad. We must also remember that Revelation requires the seals to be opened at the end of ages, which means some seals still needed to be opened after Muhammad.

Muhammad did open some seals of Revelation, not all, and subsequently Muhammad by promising a Judgement Day was still to come, in turn sealed the Quran to be opened by another Messenger.

Likewise, the Bab Book the Bayan was sealed for Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah has sealed some of the Book for the next Messenger/s to come.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I agree it's obvious. But I also find it obvious that God when he says final/seal he means it, and doesn't mean the all Prophets are all Prophets type meaning and hence Mohammad (s) is the final one in that sense sort of thing, but really means it for what it means. Also, that the day of judgment refers to the hereafter when things will be shown to every soul and does not refer to a coming of a Prophet.

I'm just saying, by standards that God can deceive us and change his norms, as @InvestigateTruth always emphasizes on, to be consistent, you would have to accept the Maitreya.
In the Quran it says, there are verses that are Mutishabihat and none knows their interpretation except God and those well-grounded in knowledge. "Seal of Prophets" is one of those Mutishabihat verses. We now know it is an allusion to the Seal of confirmation of the Next Prophet. Since all prophets confirm the coming of the prophets after themself, everyone of them is the Seal Of Prophets. By this, it means seal of confirmation, not seal of closing.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In the Quran it says, there are verses that are Mutishabihat and none knows their interpretation except God and those well-grounded in knowledge. "Seal of Prophets" is one of those Mutishabihat verses. We now know it is an allusion to the Seal of confirmation of the Next Prophet. Since all prophets confirm the coming of the prophets after themself, everyone of them is the Seal Of Prophets. By this, it means seal of confirmation, not seal of closing.
The way kitabal Itqan interprets it is that they are all first and last, and talks about Mohammad (s) being "Adam" and so being the first, in that sense, as well as whoever is last Mohammad (s) will be that person. Seems you are little ashamed of his explanation so coming up with your own.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is the Quandary link. Only the Messengers can break the Seals.

To understand this, I see we really need to understand what seals were used for in the time of Jesus and Muhammad. We must also remember that Revelation requires the seals to be opened at the end of ages, which means some seals still needed to be opened after Muhammad.

Muhammad did open some seals of Revelation, not all, and subsequently Muhammad by promising a Judgement Day was still to come, in turn sealed the Quran to be opened by another Messenger.

Likewise, the Bab Book the Bayan was sealed for Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah has sealed some of the Book for the next Messenger/s to come.

Regards Tony
So Maitreya claims to be a Messenger, but you don't believe in him. I'm saying similarly as you don't take Maitreya seriously, Baha'allah scriptures are no where like God's revelation. They are no where close to the Quran. And his explanations frankly don't make any sense.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In the Quran it says, there are verses that are Mutishabihat and none knows their interpretation except God and those well-grounded in knowledge. "Seal of Prophets" is one of those Mutishabihat verses.
The are mutishabihat from Quran, but per hadiths and Quran, any mutishabihat comes from our own ignorance, not that the Quran is actually unclear. The original book is a clear book of insights. And following any unclear meaning is condemned in Quran severely.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
The way kitabal Itqan interprets it is that they are all first and last, and talks about Mohammad (s) being "Adam" and so being the first, in that sense, as well as whoever is last Mohammad (s) will be that person. Seems you are little ashamed of his explanation so coming up with your own.
I think you are reading more than what Baha'u'llah is saying. Baha'u'llah never interpreted the meaning of the Seal.


"Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am all the Prophets”? Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: “I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus”? Why should Muḥammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: “I am the first Adam” be incapable of saying also: “I am the last Adam”? For even as He regarded Himself to be the “First of the Prophets”—that is Adam—in like manner, the “Seal of the Prophets” is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal.”

He is not interpreting the meaning of Seal here!
He is saying, since All Prophets are one and the same, spiritually, their first one is the Last, and their Last one is the first. Thus, all of them, including Muhammad, can say, He is the Seal.

It would be your own conclusion that He means to say, Seal means Last. He does not say so.
Even the Bab said, He is the Seal of Next Prophet.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
The are mutishabihat from Quran, but per hadiths and Quran, any mutishabihat comes from our own ignorance, not that the Quran is actually unclear. The original book is a clear book of insights. And following any unclear meaning is condemned in Quran severely.
This is true Link. However, do you consider yourself well-grounded in knowledge?
I dont consider myself. Only a very selected people are well-grounded. Those are the appointed Imams, Prophets and Manifestations of God.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is true Link. However, do you consider yourself well-grounded in knowledge?
I dont consider myself. Only a very selected people are well-grounded. Those are the appointed Imams, Prophets and Manifestations of God.
That is a key concept, I personally see none of us are well grounded in knowledge, there are as you have mentioned, a very rare few that have risen to, or gifted this standard.

Regards Tony
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Spiritually all the Prophets of God are one.

“As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared:
“I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs,
prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In
this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from
that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the
Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments.”

Excerpt from
The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

Where did Muhammad say that he is Jesus?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is true Link. However, do you consider yourself well-grounded in knowledge?
I dont consider myself. Only a very selected people are well-grounded. Those are the appointed Imams, Prophets and Manifestations of God.
But to follow a meaning, it has to be clear to us. The Ahlulbayt (a) clarify and helps us see what is clearly there, but we might not see due to Satan. It's never that the meaning is unclear.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think you are reading more than what Baha'u'llah is saying. Baha'u'llah never interpreted the meaning of the Seal.


"Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term “Seal of the Prophets” to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muḥammad, Himself, declared: “I am all the Prophets”? Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: “I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus”? Why should Muḥammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: “I am the first Adam” be incapable of saying also: “I am the last Adam”? For even as He regarded Himself to be the “First of the Prophets”—that is Adam—in like manner, the “Seal of the Prophets” is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the “First of the Prophets,” He likewise is their “Seal.”

He is not interpreting the meaning of Seal here!
He is saying, since All Prophets are one and the same, spiritually, their first one is the Last, and their Last one is the first. Thus, all of them, including Muhammad, can say, He is the Seal.

It would be your own conclusion that He means to say, Seal means Last. He does not say so.
Even the Bab said, He is the Seal of Next Prophet.

He's talking about "seal of the Prophets" meaning. If you are ashamed of his interpretation, then it is what it is.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He's talking about "seal of the Prophets" meaning. If you are ashamed of his interpretation, then it is what it is.
The offer is for us to explore what the "Seal" represented back in the times of Jesus and Muhammad and as to what understanding the use of a SEAL meant.

Here is one link that talks about the symbolic meaning of the Seal that is mentioned many times in the Bible.


This is from a study of seals at that time.

"...Seals served two main purposes: (1) identification and authorization, similar to modern-day signatures; and (2) protection, by preventing or restricting access.4 A sealing representing an official institution or its functionary, when attached to a document, assured its validity. Since most actual writing was carried out by professional secretaries,5 the seal’s imprint certified the sender’s identity and his licensed supervision of the transactions recorded and added credence to the message, because of its association with the official “behind” the seal, his office, and
his status. The seal’s imprint was thus a real and lasting reference to the presence and authority of the seal’s owner...."

PDF link - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3kK0beLjTsEHe5QMTFAU6K

Regards Tony
 

Bthoth

*banned*
(a). I'm making an analogy, can Mohammad (s) claim to be son of Jesus (a) and even linked to David (a) by being metaphoric son of Jesus (a) and descendant of David (a) from this angle? Say he argued he was a descendant of David (A) on this ground, would it make sense to you guys?
That muhammad is Jewish?

if you could prove that, it would be 1 heck of a revelation. The chinese would perhaps make that a holiday to laugh at the west.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In reply to the OP, no it would not make sense as 'Son' and 'Seal' are stations of the Holy spirit, or one could say intrinsic values.

All the Messengers are thus in these same Stations, they are all Son's of God and they are all the Seal, as well as the beginning.

All these Stations and Attributes have unlimited meanings across all the unlimited worlds of God.

It also means a Messenger can come in the Station of the 'Father' and that past Messengers we as Son's to that Father. This also can give meaning to 'Seal of the Prophets'.

Regards Tony
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Background to the question. Baha'allah claims to be the metaphoric son of Hassan Al-Askari (a). I'm making an analogy, can Mohammad (s) claim to be son of Jesus (a) and even linked to David (a) by being metaphoric son of Jesus (a) and descendant of David (a) from this angle? Say he argued he was a descendant of David (A) on this ground, would it make sense to you guys?
I believe the Qu'ran says God doesn't have sons.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Spiritually all the Prophets of God are one.

“As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared:
“I am Jesus.” He recognized the truth of the signs,
prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In
this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from
that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have championed the
Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments.”

Excerpt from
The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh
I believe that is false.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again. '"

Metaphorically, Islam was pregnant with a Promised One.

"This child (the Bab) was the promised Manifestation, Who is the offspring of the religion of Muḥammad."

I believe that is a misquote: John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
He's talking about "seal of the Prophets" meaning. If you are ashamed of his interpretation, then it is what it is.
I think You have a presumption that Khaatam, means Seal, and Seal means last. I am saying, this interpretation and understanding of the Term, Seal of Prophets, is a well- established, but incorrect interpretation.

Consider that, Jews also believe, the period of Prophethood is ended with Malachy. Ask them, if you dont believe me!

"According to the Talmud, there were 48 prophets and 7 prophetesses of Judaism. The last Jewish prophet is believed to have been Malachi. In Jewish tradition it is believed that the period of prophecy, called Nevuah, ended with Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi at which time the "Shechinah departed from Israel".



You are assuming when for generations the Muslims understood Muhammad, Seal of Prophets means, the Final, therefore it is impossible that they are wrong. Well, before Muslims, the Jews had the same belief, were they correct?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think You have a presumption that Khaatam, means Seal, and Seal means last. I am saying, this interpretation and understanding of the Term, Seal of Prophets, is a well- established, but incorrect interpretation.

Consider that, Jews also believe, the period of Prophethood is ended with Malachy. Ask them, if you dont believe me!

"According to the Talmud, there were 48 prophets and 7 prophetesses of Judaism. The last Jewish prophet is believed to have been Malachi. In Jewish tradition it is believed that the period of prophecy, called Nevuah, ended with Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi at which time the "Shechinah departed from Israel".



You are assuming when for generations the Muslims understood Muhammad, Seal of Prophets means, the Final, therefore it is impossible that they are wrong. Well, before Muslims, the Jews had the same belief, were they correct?
I'm saying Baha'allah didn't think of the other term meanings but said it meant that all Prophets are last/final since they are each other type meaning. You thinking of other meanings is irrelevant since he says it means final but that all Prophets are the final since they are all first and last and each other type meaning is what Baha'allah came up with. Seems you are too ashamed of this interpretation.
 
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