If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

[Ben Avraham]

Where do you get your information about Paul?

From the NT and Jewish tradition; and all through Logic.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes I might be wrong there, i think it was the orthodox Jews, those ones that wear the funny hat and funny hair.

That's okay if you find them funny. Their funny style is mainly due to their East-European culture. An Orthodox Jew does not have to be that funny but, they are not wrong in their style of life.

 

[Muffled]

No, it is not but, to say that a Jew is God can't be less than idolatry. Jesus was a Jew if I have to remind you. And we as a People are the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son" said the Lord. Israel as a People, not on an individual basis. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

I believe He is not dead and lives forever.

I do not believe you have any basis for that statement. If you were saying any Jew could be God then I would agree with you since it is only Jesus who is God.

 

[Muffled]

I was never able to comprehend that an immortal person dying in one human form and spending just a couple days dead really isn't a sacrifice. The commonly understood "days he'll never get back" does not apply, and knowing it would soon be over and much better after that, where's the mental and psychological sacrifice other than "Me! This is gonna hurt!" But he didn't even really actually give up anything. A mother sacrifices more when she goes hungry so that her children may eat.

I believe crucifixion is a hell of a lot of hurt.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe crucifixion is a hell of a lot of hurt.

So was tearing my ACL and getting my tongue pierced. But the pains are pretty much faded from memory. For a god, it's just not impressive. During an eternity as god, he had one very lousy day.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"made mortal."

He is not mortal if he cannot die. Mortal means you can die.

The OP ignores the fact that Christ is a human and has a human nature. He was mortal and did die, just like we are mortal and do die. We also have immoral souls, like He has an immortal soul. The body dies, but the soul does not.

As for what He sacrificed, His sacrifice was one of love and obedience to the Father. He wasn't being punished by God, or tormented by God (the tormentors were us). He was bearing the fruits of our sinful nature, however - death.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How could Jesus be God if he is dead? God does not die; God is eternal. And how could Jesus have sacrificed any thing for us if the Prophets whom he confirmed down to the letter say that no one can die for another? (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30)

Jesus doesn't bear the responsibility for anyone's personal sin. Your sin is still your own that you must repent and do penance for.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Jesus doesn't bear the responsibility for anyone's personal sin. Your sin is still your own that you must repent and do penance for.

That yes, is according to my views. But then again, why do Christians claim for Jesus any thing more than the role of a Rabbi?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe He is not dead and lives forever.

I do not believe you have any basis for that statement. If you were saying any Jew could be God then I would agree with you since it is only Jesus who is God.

You believe by faith but faith is evidence of nothing. The evidence is that, once dead, no one can ever return from the grave. This is said in Jesus' own gospel aka the Tanach if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9.

And you do not believe I have any basis for the statement that, as a People, Israel remains before the Lord forever! Does it mean you don't believe the Prophets? Perhaps you did not read Jeremiah 31:35-37? Only HaShem is God and Israel is His Son as a People if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That yes, is according to my views. But then again, why do Christians claim for Jesus any thing more than the role of a Rabbi?

Because He revealed Himself as more according to His words and deeds.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Because He revealed Himself as more according to His words and deeds.

Jesus' words were according to the Tanach aka his gospel, not the NT. Any thing in the NT is Christian, not Jewish. Paul was the one who left Judaism and founded Christianity. (Acts 11:26)

 

[Jeremiahcp]

The OP ignores the fact that Christ is a human and has a human nature. He was mortal and did die, just like we are mortal and do die. We also have immoral souls, like He has an immortal soul. The body dies, but the soul does not.

As for what He sacrificed, His sacrifice was one of love and obedience to the Father. He wasn't being punished by God, or tormented by God (the tormentors were us). He was bearing the fruits of our sinful nature, however - death.

You are ignoring that he supposedly came back from the dead. Last time I checked humans even with an "immortal" soul don't come back from the dead.

"As for what He sacrificed, His sacrifice was one of love and obedience to the Father. He wasn't being punished by God, or tormented by God (the tormentors were us). He was bearing the fruits of our sinful nature, however - death."

In the real world when a father loves his child with crucifixion we throw him prison.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are ignoring that he supposedly came back from the dead. Last time I checked humans even with an "immortal" soul don't come back from the dead.

Which is irrelevant to what I said. "Sacrifice" doesn't necessarily connote loss.

"As for what He sacrificed, His sacrifice was one of love and obedience to the Father. He wasn't being punished by God, or tormented by God (the tormentors were us). He was bearing the fruits of our sinful nature, however - death."

In the real world when a father loves his child with crucifixion we throw him prison.

It was humans that killed Christ, not God.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Which is irrelevant to what I said. "Sacrifice" doesn't necessarily connote loss.


It was humans that killed Christ, not God.

"Which is irrelevant to what I said. "Sacrifice" doesn't necessarily connote loss."

It does for the purpose of this discussion, check the OP.

"It was humans that killed Christ, not God."

That's right he just stood by and watched as they tortured and killed his only child. Great parenting.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"Which is irrelevant to what I said. "Sacrifice" doesn't necessarily connote loss."

It does for the purpose of this discussion, check the OP.

I don't have to agree to your definition.

"It was humans that killed Christ, not God."

That's right he just stood by and watched as they tortured and killed his only child. Great parenting.

God doesn't promise an easy ride to anyone, not even Himself.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I don't have to agree to your definition.


God doesn't promise an easy ride to anyone, not even Himself.

"I don't have to agree to your definition."

Then you are off topic. I am not interested in how you can bend and twist semantics to avoid the topic of the thread. This thread is about what Jesus loss on the cross.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"I don't have to agree to your definition."

Then you are off topic. I am not interested in how you can bend and twist semantics to avoid the topic of the thread. This thread is about what Jesus loss on the cross.

The problem is that you assume that Christ had to lose something in the first place. Why is that?

 

[Ben Avraham]

If Jesus was God he Sacrificed Nothing for us.

Jesus was a Jew and, as such, he sacrificed nothing for us. Why not! Because according to the Prophets of the Most High, no one can sacrifice himself for another. (Ezekiel 18:4, Jeremiah 31:30)

 

[Muffled]

So was tearing my ACL and getting my tongue pierced. But the pains are pretty much faded from memory. For a god, it's just not impressive. During an eternity as god, he had one very lousy day.

I believe I find it more impressive that He doesn't have to suffer. Or as my aunt said about her Christian daughter. "I don't know what she has but I want it."

 

[Muffled]

You believe by faith but faith is evidence of nothing. The evidence is that, once dead, no one can ever return from the grave. This is said in Jesus' own gospel aka the Tanach if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9.

And you do not believe I have any basis for the statement that, as a People, Israel remains before the Lord forever! Does it mean you don't believe the Prophets? Perhaps you did not read Jeremiah 31:35-37? Only HaShem is God and Israel is His Son as a People if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

I believe you have no evidence to support that view despite the fact that you say you do.

I believe that is not what I said. I said the Messiah does not remain alive forever.
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.