If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

[Ben Avraham]

I believe it is not idolatry to say that God is God. I believe it is idolatry to say He isn't.

No, it is not but, to say that a Jew is God can't be less than idolatry. Jesus was a Jew if I have to remind you. And we as a People are the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son" said the Lord. Israel as a People, not on an individual basis. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[psychoslice]

No, it is not but, to say that a Jew is God can't be less than idolatry. Jesus was a Jew if I have to remind you. And we as a People are the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son" said the Lord. Israel as a People, not on an individual basis. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

I myself don't believe there is a Messiah to come, I think it means that we all have to become One with each other, and in that we all become One Messiah, with no one lauding it over us. This is been the one big mistake, waiting for someone to come, when in fact he is always here, come on, wake up !!!.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I myself don't believe there is a Messiah to come, I think it means that we all have to become One with each other, and in that we all become One Messiah, with no one lauding it over us. This is been the one big mistake, waiting for someone to come, when in fact he is always here, come on, wake up !!!.

And I agree with you. I also don't believe there is a Messiah to come but, in my case because I believe in the collective concept of Messiah, the Messiah has already come and, if you ask me, for the third time. The first time, Moses, qua Messianic leader, guided the Messiah back to the Promised Land. That happened when the Exodus from Egypt took place as the Lord said, "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) The second time around was when the Messianic leader King Cyrus from Persia proclaimed freedom for the Messiah, his return to the Land of Israel and financed the rebuilding of the Temple. (Isaiah 45:1) The last time was in our days, 1948 when the Messianic leader Theodor Herzl lost his life in the struggle to inducing the Messiah with love for Zion. But the third Messianic Commonwealth was proclaimed in 1948 by Zionists and Israel has been around since then. Baruch HaShem!

 

[psychoslice]

And I agree with you. I also don't believe there is a Messiah to come but, in my case because I believe in the collective concept of Messiah, the Messiah has already come and, if you ask me, for the third time. The first time, Moses, qua Messianic leader, guided the Messiah back to the Promised Land. That happened when the Exodus from Egypt took place as the Lord said, "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that he may serve Me." (Exodus 4:22,23) The second time around was when the Messianic leader King Cyrus from Persia proclaimed freedom for the Messiah, his return to the Land of Israel and financed the rebuilding of the Temple. (Isaiah 45:1) The last time was in our days, 1948 when the Messianic leader Theodor Herzl lost his life in the struggle to inducing the Messiah with love for Zion. But the third Messianic Commonwealth was proclaimed in 1948 by Zionists and Israel has been around since then. Baruch HaShem!

Well I don't know about a Messiah for Israel is true or not, to me personally there are many so called Messiah's, I don't believe there is one who is from so called heaven, because we are all in heaven, we only need to truly realize it, and in that we are saved, no need to wait for anyone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I was never able to comprehend that an immortal person dying in one human form and spending just a couple days dead really isn't a sacrifice. The commonly understood "days he'll never get back" does not apply, and knowing it would soon be over and much better after that, where's the mental and psychological sacrifice other than "Me! This is gonna hurt!" But he didn't even really actually give up anything. A mother sacrifices more when she goes hungry so that her children may eat.

 

[InChrist]

Although, from the human historical standpoint the suffering of Jesus on the cross fell within a limited time frame I am of the view that it also has an eternal aspect which He bears, as only God could bear, forever for the sake of saving humanity.

"If we now consider the nature of time and eternity (see Arthur C. Custance, Journey out of Time, Ref. 2) it must surely become clear that what was (for us) three hours' suffering by Jesus in total estrangement from the Father---was for Jesus an event in eternity which never ends. The work of Jesus on the cross, as far as we are concerned, is completely finished. Jesus is not now hanging on a cross. He has been raised from the dead, and sits in heaven, fully in charge of the universe as a resurrected man. One man, one son of Adam, Jesus the Lord is now living in glory and He is in charge of the universe.

But in another sense, if we could step into eternity and view an eternal being such as the Son of God experiencing life---if we could see things from the vantage point of eternity---then we would perceive that a part of the eternal God must suffer forever, outside of time, because of human sin."
Jesus' Death: Six Hours of Eternity on the Cross

 

[Ben Avraham]

Although, from the human historical standpoint the suffering of Jesus on the cross fell within a limited time frame I am of the view that it also has an eternal aspect which He bears, as only God could bear, forever for the sake of saving humanity.

"If we now consider the nature of time and eternity (see Arthur C. Custance, Journey out of Time, Ref. 2) it must surely become clear that what was (for us) three hours' suffering by Jesus in total estrangement from the Father---was for Jesus an event in eternity which never ends. The work of Jesus on the cross, as far as we are concerned, is completely finished. Jesus is not now hanging on a cross. He has been raised from the dead, and sits in heaven, fully in charge of the universe as a resurrected man. One man, one son of Adam, Jesus the Lord is now living in glory and He is in charge of the universe.

But in another sense, if we could step into eternity and view an eternal being such as the Son of God experiencing life---if we could see things from the vantage point of eternity---then we would perceive that a part of the eternal God must suffer forever, outside of time, because of human sin."
Jesus' Death: Six Hours of Eternity on the Cross

There is nothing eternal about a man as an individual, but as a people yes, as Israel aka Judah which was Divinity promised to David to remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36) Or to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-57) Eternal life belongs to HaShem only and it could not be shared with man who has been born and therefore, must die. (Genesis 3:22,23)

Jesus did not die to save humanity because he was a Jew, a loyal Jew, who would not contradict the Prophets of the Most High who say that no one can died for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30) Jesus was crucified on a political charge of insurrection because, his own disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem, a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) Hence, his verdict INRI nailed on the top of his cross by orders of Pilate, so that all could know why Jesus was condemned to the cross. But anti-Semites don't have eyes for that. They prefer to slander the Jews with having crucified Jesus.

Now, the idea of resurrection was fabricated by Paul when he declared that Jesus had resurrected according to his -
Paul's own gospel. (II Timothy 2:8) It means that alongside his gospel, there must have been another in whose agenda that idea about Jesus was not being mentioned.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Well I don't know about a Messiah for Israel is true or not, to me personally there are many so called Messiah's, I don't believe there is one who is from so called heaven, because we are all in heaven, we only need to truly realize it, and in that we are saved, no need to wait for anyone.

That's what I meant. There is not need to wait for a Messiah when he has already come. Messiah is a word in Hebrew to mean the Anointed One of the Lord. If you ever open a Bible to read, check Prophet Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord.

 

[psychoslice]

That's what I meant. There is not need to wait for a Messiah when he has already come. Messiah is a word in Hebrew to mean the Anointed One of the Lord. If you ever open a Bible to read, check Prophet Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord.

Sorry I thought you meant one particular person, or god-man, also Israel is extended to all living on the planet, not just one particular nation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's like someone giving you a 20 dollar bill without you asking for it, then snatching it back from you 3 days later, then stating that you owe them a foot massage everyday for the rest of your life for the $20 that you never asked for, and that they took back anyway, then threatening to douse you with gasoline and set you ablaze if you don't give them foot massages.

It's a protection racket.

Sounds like my mother except for the Gasoline part.

"You know you need money Carlita. How much do you need?"

(Cropola) $5.00

Here's a fifty dollar bill

I can't pay you back

Don't worry, it's a gift because I'm your mother of course I'm going to give you what you can't afford to give back.

(So I use it to pay bills, food, and transpo. All gone in a week. I get a call)

You know its your mother's birthday....

(As if people remember my birthdays. I'm almost 40 and starting to forget myself)

"Why don't you take your mother to breakfast...."

weeks down the line

"I give. I give I give."

So I had my mother her 5.00 and she says "no you owe me 50 remember."

I guess that's probably why the jesus story doesn't sit right with me. If I believed in god, Id be in any faith that didn't have any intermediary outside of our ancestors and environment.

 

[InChrist]

There is nothing eternal about a man as an individual, but as a people yes, as Israel aka Judah which was Divinity promised to David to remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36) Or to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-57) Eternal life belongs to HaShem only and it could not be shared with man who has been born and therefore, must die. (Genesis 3:22,23)

Jesus did not die to save humanity because he was a Jew, a loyal Jew, who would not contradict the Prophets of the Most High who say that no one can died for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30) Jesus was crucified on a political charge of insurrection because, his own disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem, a Roman province at the time. (Luke 19:37-40) Hence, his verdict INRI nailed on the top of his cross by orders of Pilate, so that all could know why Jesus was condemned to the cross. But anti-Semites don't have eyes for that. They prefer to slander the Jews with having crucified Jesus.

Now, the idea of resurrection was fabricated by Paul when he declared that Jesus had resurrected according to his -
Paul's own gospel. (II Timothy 2:8) It means that alongside his gospel, there must have been another in whose agenda that idea about Jesus was not being mentioned.

Since you are Jewish I can understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree and believe that Jesus Christ is the prophesied Messiah and the eternal Son of God. Of course I don't think Jesus would or did contradict the words of the Most High, but as God He could choose to pay for the sins of the world as He so chose and I believe the animal sacrifices were a foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, as God in the flesh (which only God could accomplish) for sins of the world. https://www.compellingtruth.org/animal-sacrifices.html

It wasn't only Paul who claimed Jesus rose from the dead, but all the other disciples, except Judas and many other witnesses. As far as Paul having an agenda, all I can say is that it was a pretty stupid agenda because it cost him his respected position of a Pharisee and brought him a life of suffering and persecution and finally death by beheading.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Since you are Jewish I can understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree and believe that Jesus Christ is the prophesied Messiah and the eternal Son of God. Of course I don't think Jesus would or did contradict the words of the Most High, but as God He could choose to pay for the sins of the world as He so chose and I believe the animal sacrifices were a foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, as God in the flesh (which only God could accomplish) for sins of the world. https://www.compellingtruth.org/animal-sacrifices.html

It wasn't only Paul who claimed Jesus rose from the dead, but all the other disciples, except Judas and many other witnesses. As far as Paul having an agenda, all I can say is that it was a pretty stupid agenda because it cost him his respected position of a Pharisee and brought him a life of suffering and persecution and finally death by beheading.

Paul was never a Pharisee and, much less a respected one. The Sect of the Pharisees by definition was the separated one. It means that they were too restricted to accept a man like Paul as a member of their Sect. Paul was a Hellenistic Jew and, the Pharisees would never approve a Hellenistic Jew as a member to their Sect. Now, Jesus yes, he was of the Pharisaic line. Only a Pharisee would observe the Law as Jesus did if you read Mat. 5:17-19. Besides, Paul would never but never teach to listen to "Moses" aka the Law as Jesus did in Luke 16:29-31.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sorry I thought you meant one particular person, or god-man, also Israel is extended to all living on the planet, not just one particular nation.

Don't mention that the term Israel is extended to all living or the planet and not a particular nation because you could be charged with promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology which by definition is akin to vandalism of the Tanach with the things of of the NT. Israel is the Jewish nation aka God's People, if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. And to the Lord, Israel meant much more than all the nations of the world if you read Exodus 19:5,6.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Since you are Jewish I can understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree and believe that Jesus Christ is the prophesied Messiah and the eternal Son of God. Of course I don't think Jesus would or did contradict the words of the Most High, but as God He could choose to pay for the sins of the world as He so chose and I believe the animal sacrifices were a foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus, as God in the flesh (which only God could accomplish) for sins of the world. https://www.compellingtruth.org/animal-sacrifices.html

It wasn't only Paul who claimed Jesus rose from the dead, but all the other disciples, except Judas and many other witnesses. As far as Paul having an agenda, all I can say is that it was a pretty stupid agenda because it cost him his respected position of a Pharisee and brought him a life of suffering and persecution and finally death by beheading.

Jesus is dead and, according to the Prophets of the Most High, once dead, no one can ever return from the only place eternal about man aka the grave. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc) Jesus did not choose to die on the cross for the sins of the world. To pray three times on the Gethsemane not to walk the Via Dolorosa is not to choose to. In his prayers to HaShem, Jesus said, "be Thy will done, NOT MINE." What was Jesus' will? Not to take the way to the cross. So, he was crucified against his will. And today, for lack of focusing on what they are reading, Christians insist that Jesus willingly died for our sins which is obviously not true.

 

[psychoslice]

Don't mention that the term Israel is extended to all living or the planet and not a particular nation because you could be charged with promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology which by definition is akin to vandalism of the Tanach with the things of of the NT. Israel is the Jewish nation aka God's People, if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord. And to the Lord, Israel meant much more than all the nations of the world if you read Exodus 19:5,6.

Yes that is what is on the outside, but we are all God's chosen, Israel is just where the story came from, back then they saw themselves as the only people, they even looked at the gentiles as dogs, they were very self centered, again that is because they were looking on the outside.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes that is what is on the outside, but we are all God's chosen, Israel is just where the story came from, back then they saw themselves as the only people, they even looked at the gentiles as dogs, they were very self centered, again that is because they were looking on the outside.

I don't believe you until you use the Scriptures to prove to me what you say. If you don't read the Scriptures, you cannot give off compromising statements to discredit the Son of God aka Israel. (Exodus 4:22,23) The only person ever claimed by the NT to have looked at the Gentiles as swines and dogs was Jesus himself if you read Mat. 7:6; 15:28. He even instructed his own disciples that, when spreading the gospel of salvation not to take the way of the Gentiles, especially if they were of the Samaritan kind. (Mat. 10:5,6) I bet you have never heard about that, have you!

 

[psychoslice]

I don't believe you until you use the Scriptures to prove to me what you say. If you don't read the Scriptures, you cannot give off compromising statements to discredit the Son of God aka Israel. (Exodus 4:22,23) The only person ever claimed by the NT to have looked at the Gentiles as swines and dogs was Jesus himself if you read Mat. 7:6; 15:28. He even instructed his own disciples that, when spreading the gospel of salvation not to take the way of the Gentiles, especially if they were of the Samaritan kind. (Mat. 10:5,6) I bet you have never heard about that, have you!

Yes I might be wrong there, i think it was the orthodox Jews, those ones that wear the funny hat and funny hair.

 

[InChrist]

Paul was never a Pharisee and, much less a respected one. The Sect of the Pharisees by definition was the separated one. It means that they were too restricted to accept a man like Paul as a member of their Sect. Paul was a Hellenistic Jew and, the Pharisees would never approve a Hellenistic Jew as a member to their Sect. Now, Jesus yes, he was of the Pharisaic line. Only a Pharisee would observe the Law as Jesus did if you read Mat. 5:17-19. Besides, Paul would never but never teach to listen to "Moses" aka the Law as Jesus did in Luke 16:29-31.

Where do you get your information about Paul?

 

[InChrist]

Jesus is dead and, according to the Prophets of the Most High, once dead, no one can ever return from the only place eternal about man aka the grave. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalms 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc) Jesus did not choose to die on the cross for the sins of the world. To pray three times on the Gethsemane not to walk the Via Dolorosa is not to choose to. In his prayers to HaShem, Jesus said, "be Thy will done, NOT MINE." What was Jesus' will? Not to take the way to the cross. So, he was crucified against his will. And today, for lack of focusing on what they are reading, Christians insist that Jesus willingly died for our sins which is obviously not true.

According to the biblical scriptures Jesus stated that He mission in coming to earth was to do His Father's will...For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me (6:38) and that He was one with the Father..."I and the Father are one."( John 10:30).

He purposely came to earth and willingly went to the cross to give His life as the Savior of mankind, knowing He would rise again, conquer death, and offer eternal life to humanity.

Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. John 2:19-22

Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”
But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them. Luke 9:51-56

...even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.John 10:15

In light of these scriptures and the entire context of the Bible I believe it was Jesus' will to die for the sins of the world.

 

[Ben Avraham]

According to the biblical scriptures Jesus stated that He mission in coming to earth was to do His Father's will...For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me (6:38) and that He was one with the Father..."I and the Father are one."( John 10:30). He purposely came to earth and willingly went to the cross to give His life as the Savior of mankind, knowing He would rise again, conquer death, and offer eternal life to humanity. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18. Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said. John 2:19-22 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?” But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them. Luke 9:51-56 ...even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.John 10:15. In light of these scriptures and the entire context of the Bible I believe it was Jesus' will to die for the sins of the world.

Jesus did not willingly go to the cross. He rather prayed thrice in the Gethsemane asking not to walk the Via Dolosa. He even said, "Be They will done; NOT MINE. What was his will, to die on the cross? Why would he ask not to? Because, he walked to the cross against his will. So, it is a delusion to claim that Jesus lay his life down because no one wold take it. The Romans had to take it because he did not seem to be ready to lay it down himself. "Then the Jews said!" What are you implying, that Jesus was not Jewish? Why didn't the Samaritans receive him? Was it because hey had found out that Jesus would not let his disciples take the gospel of salvation to the Samaritans? (Mat. 10:5,6) Well, in my case, I would not have liked that distinction. I don't agree with you that it was Jesus' will to die for the sins of the world because I don't believe he would contradict the Prophets of the Most High that say, "No one can die for the sins of another." (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30)