If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

[Muffled]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

I believe the conclusion does not follow from the premise and that is because there is a jump to the conclusion.

I believe this is not so, there is no reason to believe that a divine being suffers any less in the body than a normal human.

 

[TheMusicTheory]

Not to mention the entire idea of needing a sacrifice in the first place is so bronze age its hard to even fathom.

An omnipotent god can make all the rules, and this god chose to decide that the only way humanity could be "saved" was if he created a son and killed him.

That's...quite frankly kind of insane. The only possible purpose it serves is to set up a massive guilt trip, which, mission accomplished I guess?

 

[Muffled]

This is true. Unless it costs you something you have sacrificed nothing. The size of the sacrifice is relative as Jesus made clear....but the motive is more important.

Like 21:1-4:
"Now as he looked up, he saw the rich dropping their gifts into the treasury chests. 2 Then he saw a needy widow drop in two small coins of very little value, 3 and he said: “Truly I say to you that this poor widow put in more than they all did. 4 For all of these put in gifts out of their surplus, but she, out of her want, put in all the means of living she had.”



No one has ever shown me one scripture where either Jesus or his Father ever said that Jesus was God, or an equal of his Father. He is a begotten son. Those begotten need a begetter.

Jesus is not and never was Almighty God. This is not a Bible teaching.



Yes, he did.

I believe it did.

I believe I have done this a multitude of times but you were not there at the time so look it up under my posts.

I believe you will not be able to prove that statement because it isn't true.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.
If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.
If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

How could Jesus be God if he is dead? God does not die; God is eternal. And how could Jesus have sacrificed any thing for us if the Prophets whom he confirmed down to the letter say that no one can die for another? (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30)

 

[Muffled]

For an endless all-powerful being, the pain would have been brief and insignificant. That is not giving up very much at all.

Also are you suggesting humans can hurt God?

I don't believe anyone who has suffered excruciating pain feels that way about it.

I don't believe it is quantity that matters but willingness to endure what we endure that matters.

I believe hurt is a relative term. It can mean do harm to someone and that is certain that we do all the time by our sin. However is it going to change God in any way then the answer is, no.

 

[Muffled]

A made up place.

I believe the evidence is to the contrary.

 

[Muffled]

Any mere human can suffer, and can gladly suffer so that another does not...and people wish to do it all the time...and yet it seems to count for nothing...

To me, for the Passion to have any meaning at all, there had to be a very real possibility that Death would win, that he would be unable to rise again. If there was no chance that he would not rise, the sacrifice is meaningless. I don't see in the Bible as it stands, or in any of the churches' explanations, that there was any chance that he wasn't going to rise again.

On the other hand, the Gnostic versions have a different sense (here I'm talking the Nag Hammadi texts), wherein the Passion is understood in a very different way. For some reason, this version appeals to me.

I believe that is not the case. The person receiving the results of the sacrifice is gaining something. I sacrifice my time that I could spend doing other things to help my wife who isn't able to do much these days. The help she receives is very real and meaningful to her.

Then I believe you are missing the point of the sacrifice.

It probably appeals to you because as a man made version of things it is what you wish were so rather than what is true.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I believe that is not the case. The person receiving the results of the sacrifice is gaining something. I sacrifice my time that I could spend doing other things to help my wife who isn't able to do much these days. The help she receives is very real and meaningful to her.

Then I believe you are missing the point of the sacrifice.

It probably appeals to you because as a man made version of things it is what you wish were so rather than what is true.

1) Does doing good works (sacrificing for others) get you into heaven? Apparently not, or so I am often told.

2) I still don't see a sacrifice there, and yes, I've heard all the various versions presented here and elsewhere about the ransom, etc.

3) From my perspective, the Gnostic version is just another story, not unlike the "orthodox" (Pauline) version that eventually split into RC and the various Eastern churches, and that dominates Protestant denominations as well. Or the other varieties that were deemed "heterodox" by the orthodox and called heretical and were stripped of their property and persecuted out of existence.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Not to mention the entire idea of needing a sacrifice in the first place is so bronze age its hard to even fathom.

An omnipotent god can make all the rules, and this god chose to decide that the only way humanity could be "saved" was if he created a son and killed him.

That's...quite frankly kind of insane. The only possible purpose it serves is to set up a massive guilt trip, which, mission accomplished I guess?

Listen MT, I hardly say this here but, I totally agree with you. That's indeed frankly kind of insane, to use your own words.

 

[Hawkins]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

Matthew 12:32 (NIV)
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

God doesn't receive human/sinner insults, that's totally not acceptable. That's why God never left His true name to humans. He only told humans that "I AM who I AM".

Jesus is God the Son, insulting Jesus should be treated the same as insulting the Holy Spirit. However in a sense through receiving insults from humans as the strongest punishment of God He thus gains the right to save humans.

God cannot be harmed physically. However, He can be harmed while knowing that His creation sins. He can be harmed by incarnating as humans to suffer as humans and to bring blasphemy to His name ever since the crucifixion until now and till the end of this world.

God will only reveal His name to humans after everything is accomplished. For the same reason, Jesus will have a new name by then.

Revelation 3:12 (NIV)
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.



The sacrifice of one human won't justify the saving of unlimited number of humans. Only God's self-sacrifice will do.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If Jesus is God he Sacrificed Nothing for us.

That's not the reason why Jesus did not sacrifice any thing for us. The reason is that Jesus was a Jew and he could not contradict the Prophets of the Most High who said that no one can sacrifice himself for another. (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30) That's why Jesus sacrificed nothing for us.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Jesus' sacrifice for our sins makes a nice symbolic myth, but doesn't make much sense logically.

Then again, people are generally far more influenced by symbols and myths than by logic. If something feels significant, it doesn't need to actually make any sense, for many people.

 

[icebuddy]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

Its the belief that only the one sinned against can forgive that sin. For example: If I pissed you off, only you could truly Forgive me.

Anyways, Please explain why you think God/Jesus sacrificed nothing. Im not following your thought

 

[Muffled]

That's not the reason why Jesus did not sacrifice any thing for us. The reason is that Jesus was a Jew and he could not contradict the Prophets of the Most High who said that no one can sacrifice himself for another. (Ezekiel 18:4,20; Jeremiah 31:30) That's why Jesus sacrificed nothing for us.

I believe no man can and that is what the prophets are talking about but God can and did.

 

[Muffled]

[QUOTE="Kilgore Trout, post: 5078616, member: 17324"]Jesus' sacrifice for our sins makes a nice symbolic myth, but doesn't make much sense logically.

Then again, people are generally far more influenced by symbols and myths than by logic. If something feels significant, it doesn't need to actually make any sense, for many people.[/QUOTE]

I believe people can make up myths about it but the sacrifice is real.

I don't believe you have done any logic in here. Maybe you think you have in your head and need to share it if you think so.

I believe in general people are influenced by what they are repeatedly told and sometimes by their own false reasoning and very rarely by myth, symbols or logic. (I go by logic and what God tells me)

 

[viole]

Its the belief that only the one sinned against can forgive that sin. For example: If I pissed you off, only you could truly Forgive me.

Anyways, Please explain why you think God/Jesus sacrificed nothing. Im not following your thought

What did He lose? His life? Not really.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe no man can and that is what the prophets are talking about but God can and did.

Jesus was not God. A Jew would not be that idolatrous.

 

[Ben Avraham]

1) Does doing good works (sacrificing for others) get you into heaven? Apparently not, or so I am often told.

2) I still don't see a sacrifice there, and yes, I've heard all the various versions presented here and elsewhere about the ransom, etc.

3) From my perspective, the Gnostic version is just another story, not unlike the "orthodox" (Pauline) version that eventually split into RC and the various Eastern churches, and that dominates Protestant denominations as well. Or the other varieties that were deemed "heterodox" by the orthodox and called heretical and were stripped of their property and persecuted out of existence.

Nothing can get you into heaven but, if you want to, you can get heaven into you.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus was not God. A Jew would not be that idolatrous.

I believe it is not idolatry to say that God is God. I believe it is idolatry to say He isn't.

 

[Muffled]

Nothing can get you into heaven but, if you want to, you can get heaven into you.

I believe there is a way to get into Heaven or there would not be one to store up treasure into.

I believe there is a heaven in everyone but not Heaven and it is not possible to transfer Heaven inside a person from where it is.