If Jesus Died...

[Bthoth]

I think I'm on the earth not heaven But! the time is coming when there will be new heavens and a new earth. That's Revelation 21.

But read the descriptions of heaven.......... same place and many right here.

New? Be serious. What NEW? Are you expecting magic to create a new mother nature with a new moon and no religious wars, no religiously obtuse and no such thing as lying for church and belief? OK, that sounds like heaven to me too.

I have no doubt that with a pure unveiling (revelation) of how nature works, all of those above could happen.

 

[Bthoth]

Some see the raising of holy people who had died pointing to 'the resurrection of the last days' (Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2) But obviously it’s an anomaly added to the scriptures. It didn’t actually happen. Perhaps a “seer” knew of a dispensational resurrection that occurred when Christ Michael returned to heaven.

Perhaps the interpretations are incomplete.

The “new heavens and new earth” refers to the Mansion worlds that Jesus spoke of.

Mansion..... more people things, wants, desires

This world isn’t our permanent home.

Where is anyone going........... Ticket to ride on the tesla rocket?

 

[Colt]

Perhaps the interpretations are incomplete.

Mansion..... more people things, wants, desires

Where is anyone going........... Ticket to ride on the tesla rocket?

The salvaged awake on another world. IMOP

 

[YoursTrue]

But read the descriptions of heaven.......... same place and many right here.

New? Be serious. What NEW? Are you expecting magic to create a new mother nature with a new moon and no religious wars, no religiously obtuse and no such thing as lying for church and belief? OK, that sounds like heaven to me too.

I have no doubt that with a pure unveiling (revelation) of how nature works, all of those above could happen.

There are physical heavens and spiritual heavens. Sometimes when a person says something like, "Oh it was heavenly," they (usually) don't mean they think they were in heaven. It means they were very, very happy. Jesus told his disciples to pray for the kingdom of God to come to the earth. "Our Father in heaven," he said, "let your kingdom come." You probably know the rest of the prayer -- "let your will be done on the earth as it is in heaven."
I hope you have a nice day.

 

[YoursTrue]

The other way to observe it, is 2000 years ago, 'unconscious' could have been 'death'. And dreaming could have been having conversations with god.

Well, you have to know what the Bible says and understand it and pray. I don't think unconscious is a word transferrable to the death state in the Bible, even though it might be used, however, a person can be unconscious and still alive in this world. He's not considered dead. People can 'naturally' revive from an unconscious state. Usually (not always) doctors and morticians realize or know when a person is unconscious and not dead. Not always, however.

 

[Kenny]

God can still forgive us even if we reject it correct? How do you reject forgiveness? Someone forgives or not it has nothing to do with the person that has been forgiven.

Of course, God is the ultimate judge so I always bow to His superior understanding and immeasurable loving heart. While on earth, basically just about everything is already forgiven. The only key is for one to accept it thorough Jesus Christ.

 

[Bthoth]

The salvaged awake on another world. IMOP

Hey brother, having images of some magical mystical relm is evidence of the damage than many of us have been exposed too.

I learned a long time past to appreciate here and now. Or simply 'learn the lesson of a train wreck'

 

[Bthoth]

There are physical heavens and spiritual heavens.

I agree, many places here are physical heavens and spiritually, every location on earth is a heaven to those that appreciate the moments of being alive.

Sometimes when a person says something like, "Oh it was heavenly," they (usually) don't mean they think they were in heaven. It means they were very, very happy.

Exactly.... appreciation. (the perspective is what is unique)

Jesus told his disciples to pray for the kingdom of God to come to the earth. "Our Father in heaven," he said, "let your kingdom come." You probably know the rest of the prayer -- "let your will be done on the earth as it is in heaven."

Here is heaven and whether people know it or not, the 'will' does become, whether considered heaven or not.

I hope you have a nice day.

Thank you. With love.

 

[Bthoth]

Well, you have to know what the Bible says and understand it and pray. I don't think unconscious is a word transferrable to the death state in the Bible,

But you forget or did not know, that people of that time period had no idea of how to determine death versus unconscious.

Heck they even had bells on stings to the surface of burial sites just in case a person woke up until the 1700's.

Be fair

a person can be unconscious and still alive in this world.

That is my point. They had no idea how to determine back then.

He's not considered dead. People can 'naturally' revive from an unconscious state.

Exactly.

Usually (not always) doctors and morticians realize or know when a person is unconscious and not dead. Not always, however.

I know, and in the first century AD the ambiguity was huge.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Of course, God is the ultimate judge so I always bow to His superior understanding and immeasurable loving heart. While on earth, basically just about everything is already forgiven. The only key is for one to accept it thorough Jesus Christ.

So God cannot just forgive us then. He needs the wrongdoings to be paid for.

The Christian faith says that God does not want a relationship with you unless you are like Jesus, perfect. If you are not like Jesus and perfect with no sin then you cannot live with God eternally, he does not want you. A perfect sinless me is not me so God does not want me in heaven but another one like his son, which again is not me.

God expects humans to forgive each other without any sacrifice or payment for the wrongdoing, but he is not willing to do that for us. He is the ultimate lawgiver so he could just forgive us without any conditions as he asks us to do.

 

[Kenny]

So God cannot just forgive us then. He needs the wrongdoings to be paid for.

i’m not sure I understand. I said

basically just about everything is already forgiven

So, in reality, you are forgiven. Am I misunderstanding your statement?

The Christian faith says that God does not want a relationship with you unless you are like Jesus, perfect.

Not at all. He wants a relationship with us so He is always pursuing us. In a very earthly way, like a man who is pursuing a woman he loves. But He won’t force His relationship on us… he is waiting for our acceptance of His relationship

If you are not like Jesus and perfect with no sin then you cannot live with God eternally, he does not want you. A perfect sinless me is not me so God does not want me in heaven but another one like his son, which again is not me.

So with those thoughts in mind… I’m not sure this applies.

 

[Colt]

So God cannot just forgive us then. He needs the wrongdoings to be paid for.

The Christian faith says that God does not want a relationship with you unless you are like Jesus, perfect. If you are not like Jesus and perfect with no sin then you cannot live with God eternally, he does not want you. A perfect sinless me is not me so God does not want me in heaven but another one like his son, which again is not me.

God expects humans to forgive each other without any sacrifice or payment for the wrongdoing, but he is not willing to do that for us. He is the ultimate lawgiver so he could just forgive us without any conditions as he asks us to do.

You are correct! In the original, pre-cross gospel, Jesus never taught human sacrifice! God has ALWAYS been a forgiving father. Rejecting the Gospel of Jesus was the will of the devil not God! Jesus taught salvation by repentance and faith. Paul taught atonement.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You are correct! In the original, pre-cross gospel, Jesus never taught human sacrifice! God has ALWAYS been a forgiving father. Rejecting the Gospel of Jesus was the will of the devil not God! Jesus taught salvation by repentance and faith. Paul taught atonement.

Jesus said:

"But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:26-28 NIV

Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26:27-29 NIV

Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10: 7-18

These seem to indicate Jesus thought he was a sacrifice.

 

[Colt]

Jesus said:

"But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:26-28 NIV

Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26:27-29 NIV

Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10: 7-18

These seem to indicate Jesus thought he was a sacrifice.

34Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father. b ”

39“Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would c do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”

 

[Dimi95]

You agree that neither Enoch, nor Elijah, went to heaven! Cool.
I wonder why your post got a "like" from someone who does not agree with that. That's weird.

To the New heavens? Where did you read that Jesus was raised to New heavens?

Revelation 21
"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

I read...
(John 8:23) . . .I am from the realms above. . .
(John 3:31) The one who comes from above is over all others. The one who is from the earth is from the earth and speaks of things of the earth. The one who comes from heaven is over all others.

1 Corinthians 15
"The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall webear the image of the heavenly man."

(John 13:3) So Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands and that he came from God and was going to God,
(John 16:28) I came as the Father’s representative and have come into the world. Now I am leaving the world and am going to the Father.”
(Hebrews 8:1, 2) 1 Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man.
(Hebrews 9:24) For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf.

Is this not the same heaven where God dwells, and where Jesus came from?
(Psalm 110:1) Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
(Hebrews 1:3) He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
(Acts 2:32, 33) 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear.
(Acts 7:55) But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand,
(Ephesians 1:20) which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,

John 14
"I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

You think this new heavens is a new home of God, or new universe with new planets, Dimi?
Please describe the New Heavens to me.

Revelation 21
"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

(Luke 9:33) . . .Peter said to Jesus: “Instructor, it is fine for us to be here. So let us erect three tents, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” He did not realize what he was saying.

Yes. Like many today who read the Bible, Peter thought that what he was seeing, a physical reality.
He did not realize he was seeing a vision.
(Matthew 17:7-9) 7 Then Jesus came near, and touching them, he said: “Get up. Have no fear.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one but Jesus himself. 9 As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”

In the vision Moses and Elijah represents something in relation to the kingdom.

You jumped from Luke to Matthew,Why?

Luke 9
"Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)
While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen."

Yes, they were taken out of this life. Are you thinking they were taken somewhere, beside under the dirt?

I don't assume , if scripture says they were taken , then they were taken.

Pardon me? I'm not sure where this fits. Can you clarify, please?

Revelation 22:21
Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ πάντων τῶν ἁγίων· ἀμήν.

 

[Colt]

Does this parable suggest that it was Gods will that the son be rejected and killed??????

Matthew 21:33-46​

​

New International Version​

​

​

The Parable of the Tenants​

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,”they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[a]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”[b]
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

34Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father. b ”

39“Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would c do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”

How does this relate to the scripture I posted about Jesus calling himself a sacrifice for sins?

 

[Colt]

How does this relate to the scripture I posted about Jesus calling himself a sacrifice for sins?

The earlier teachings are inconsistent with the post cross Pagan recollection of blood drinking and flesh eating. While it was inevitable that Jesus would be rejected, that doesn’t mean it was Gods will!

Put it this way, If the Jews would have accepted Jesus’ Gospel of the kingdom then they would be preaching it today from the second Temple!

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The earlier teachings are inconsistent with the post cross Pagan recollection of blood drinking and flesh eating. While it was inevitable that Jesus would be rejected, that doesn’t mean it was Gods will!

Put it this way, If the Jews would have accepted Jesus’ Gospel of the kingdom then they would be preaching it today from the second Temple!

Ok, you just disagree with what other Christians believe then. That is fine, not sure how to tell who is correct.

 

[nPeace]

Revelation 21
"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

That scripture says Jesus went to the new heavens?
I'm not seeing it. Um. Give me till tomorrow. I need to check the optician to see if there is something on my eyes.

1 Corinthians 15
"The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall webear the image of the heavenly man."

Heavenly man???
That's an interesting choice of words.
King James Bible
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

New King James Version
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Is this the verse that says Jesus went to the new heavens?
I'm not seeing it sorry. My eyes must be really bad. I've got to get them checked.

John 14
"I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Still not seeing it. Sorry.
Could you use the biggest font, and quote the part that says Jesus went to the new heavens. That might help. Thanks.

Revelation 21
"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

The New heavens is New Jerusalem?
Okay. So the New Heavens is Jesus' Wife? Jesus marries the New Heavens?
How then did Jesus ascend to the New Heavens, if the Saints needed to wait until Jesus descended with the voice of an archangel, and the dead in Christ would then rise?

You jumped from Luke to Matthew,Why?

2 timothy 3:15-17

"and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,correcting and training in righteousness,so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Whoever has studied the Bible knows that every verse can connect with the other.

These word look familiar.

Luke 9
"Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)
While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen."

(Luke 9:33) . . .Peter said to Jesus: “Instructor, it is fine for us to be here. So let us erect three tents, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” He did not realize what he was saying.

(Matthew 17:7-9) 7 Then Jesus came near, and touching them, he said: “Get up. Have no fear.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one but Jesus himself. 9 As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”

You don't have a problem with Matthew, I hope.

I don't assume , if scripture says they were taken , then they were taken.

Okay. So we both agree they were taken out of this life... to their grave?

Revelation 22:21
Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ πάντων τῶν ἁγίων· ἀμήν.

Well that simplifies it. Thanks.